Large upper teeth and roll in/squeak (and a couple of other

[samwise]

Hi everyone, I just got the book a couple of weeks ago and I already have a question

I changed my embouchure a couple of months ago, switching from an inefficient "open" setup that was very inconsistent, with low range and terrible endurance. A lot of things have improved after switching to a "closed" setting (i.e. letting the air open the aperture), but I'm definitely not there yet. I can currently play to around a high B or C fairly consistently and can occasionally play (squeak) higher, but I have to use more pressure than what I feel comfortable with. From what I can tell, what's happening now is my bottom lip is going under my top lip and curling slightly over my bottom teeth. My bell goes down significantly as I ascend. I think this setup resembles the setup described in a post in the Callet forum ("Best Explanation of SC that I've Seen"). I'm trying to move to a BE type roll-in but having a little trouble. My teacher can free high C, but has trouble explaining how buzz over exactly he does it, so I ordered the BE book after reading a little about it and am working on the lip clamp/roll-in to try to correct my roll-in.

I have two large upper teeth and when I do the roll in, rather then it forming at the bottom edge of the top teeth like the book says, it forms right in the middle of the upper teeth. Because of this it's very difficult to get a squeak and if I get any air through the setup usually collapses or the air is going straight up into my eyes. Should I use my corners and other muscles to pull the setup downward or is there another way I can go about it?

One other thing that's unrelated (or maybe it isn't..?), I have a lot of problems with a bouncing chin while tonguing right now. It's especially bad when I attempt to staccato tongue; the jaw bounces up and down on each stroke of the tongue. I can't play any passages well because of the pitch changing as the chin bounces. I remember reading a post (I've been a silent reader here a long time ) about a potential cause of this. I think the poster said it has to do with the player's jaw being more closed for the attack and then opening up to get a better tone on the note. I think this may be what I am doing, it's hard to analyze but it seems that my chin goes up slightly right before the attack and then bounces back down. I've tried everything I could think of and that my teacher has suggested to remedy, spending a lot of time in front of a mirror doing everything from using a different syllable to putting objects between the back teeth, and no luck. If anyone can offer any suggestions on this I'd be extremely grateful, this is probably the most frustrating aspect of my playing right now. On a side note, I don't know much about SC, but if my lip is doing what is consistent with SC could that be the problem? (From what I've read SC uses tonguing on the lips, could this be the reason? If I have naturally stumbled upon a SC setup should I pursue that? I've done some reading about it in the past day but it seems to me that it's mostly about the tongue arch, forgive my ignorance on the method.) Tell me if this isn't the case and I'm just babbling here

Well thanks again for any thoughts or suggestions, and thanks for the great book Jeff, it has really helped me out and gotten rid of many uncertainties I had. Sorry for the long post

[_dcstep]

Ugh.

I think you need to stick with one book for now. You're getting your embouchure very confused.

I'm only going to discuss the jaw moving as you tongue aspect. I guess I'm feeling lazy, but maybe it's because I think it's the single most important aspect for you to get under control right now. I suspect that you've got your teeth too close together so that you have to separate them to tongue and then you move the jaw back together as you tongue recedes. Not sure, just a guess. Only you can tell us by working on it very slowly while watching yourself in the mirror. I think your instructor is right. Spend a lot of time in the mirror.

You seem in a big hurry. Pull back a little and focus on this bouncing chin thing. You've got to get that under control before you can make any music.

Good luck,

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[samwise]

"I think you need to stick with one book for now. You're getting your embouchure very confused."

Yeah, that's how I feel, but the only book I am using now is BE, I've read a little into SC but haven't attempted anything mentioned there.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll see if that's what's going on. I do spend a lot of time in the mirror, it just get's frustrating at times, after spending an hour and being back where I started.

On a positive note I'm finally getting a tone I enjoy hearing

Sorry for the garbled post, a lot of confusion building up for the past month or so and I finally decided to post.

Thanks again for the help

[_dcstep]

Well, good news about the tone. Keep that in your head and be patient. It takes time.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[Bob Cross]

You said that you have your bottom lip under your top lip and rolled inside your teeth. I can see how you would have to manipulate your tongueing with that set up. Jeff spells out pretty clearly that the lips are not sucked behind the teeth and that the lips should be more or less even. Although you haven’t mentioned which, if any, exercises you are doing, I would say that you have not yet started to do BE. I am pretty sure of this because roll in uses very little pressure (your said you need lots). Pressure will close off the note in roll in, at least for me.

Unlike other books, there is no vague theory you have to implement on your own - just exercises which take (for me not much) time to pay off. Reading the book and trying to implement some of its theory is not the idea. BE is a fantastic approach that leaves a lot of room for experimentation and self discovery. However, I don’t think it will work if don’t read *very* carefully and follow the instructions exactly. Jeff has used very precise language for a reason. Be meticulous and patient.

It is easy to get carried away with roll in, since it is exciting and gratifying to play high notes. However, don’t forget that the main point for roll in is to drag *down* the notes. Also pay attention to do the roll outs - they are just as important, and maybe more so for you since they will get the lower lips further out and develop some muscles you didn't know you had. Yeah - they sound awful and totally unmusical.

I just can’t say enough about how great BE works. I have a wall full of books that gave me slow but acceptable progress. Doing BE since December, I am a totally different player. I used to be amazed by the range of some of the fine amateur musicians that I play with, and thought that I could never attain that range. These folks are still better musicians than I am, but my range is better. It is just an unbelievable good feeling to be playing music that I like (e.g. Charlier, Broadway show music etc.) that I thought would never be within my technical ability. And I still keep progressing! It's hard to be musical when you struggle with range and endurance.

Jeff says this works for everyone and I pretty much believe it. However, it is important to follow the directions carefully and exactly. I will make a controversial statement. To me, BE is the single most important book for trumpet ever written. Granted this sounds a bit silly considering some of the famous folks that have published. But as I think of it, no other book has come close to delivering the range and tone that I have since BE. It also is written in a very concrete and precise manner - no glittering generalities. There, Jeff, how is that for your ego - You may go down with Arban and Clarke. I just can't tell you how much confusion and frustration your book has removed for me.

Bob

[_dcstep]

I agree with you Bob. Since we're on the BE forum, hopefully flames won't start. However, it DOES work. No mumbo-jumbo, just excercises that work.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[oj]

samwise,

Bob gave you very good advice.

Perhaps you could work more on the lip clamp?
Do it 3 times each day - morning, noon, evening.

When you do the lip clamp, you first let the teeth close together (lining up - moving jaw forward). Then roll both lips in so the red disappear. Then while holding this you move the tongue forward so it opens up the closed teeth. You should feel both lips with the tongue. Then you hold this (the isometric part).

Ole

P.S.
I posted some exercises that Jeanne Pocious have suggested. I feel that they can be used to develop R.O & R.I. without the horn. They are also isometrics. Look here:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=15591&forum=29

[Dave Converse]

Lots of good advice above. So.....here's summore to help confuse you with. While arguments are made about tonguing.............(whether the articulation should be made behind the top teeth, through the teeth, tongue tip anchored, not anchored, etc.) most all of us will agree that the tongue should be used as an interrupter of a constant air stream. Sometimes, extra jaw movement can occur if the tongue is taking on too many jobs.

Try this. Hold your left hand up to the bottom of your chin. Now, press your hand upward against the chin while staccato tonguing eigth notes on a G2, keeping the tongue as RELAXED as possible. If the chin bounces, increase the upward hand pressure until it stays still. If this is successful, notice what's happening differently with the tongue or jaw when the hand pressure is removed. Then, possibly, you can work on keeping things the same as you remove the "crutch."

[trumpetteacher1]

Samwise,

Glad you finally decided to post. BTW - Frodo sends his regards!

You said, "I have two large upper teeth and when I do the roll in, rather then it forming at the bottom edge of the top teeth like the book says, it forms right in the middle of the upper teeth. Because of this it's very difficult to get a squeak..."

First, in doing lip clamp, I never specified "bottom edge of the teeth," as the degree that the bottom lip covers the top teeth varies according to the size of both top lip and teeth.

Second, having a short top lip (or long teeth, however you want to look at it) has no bearing on the ease of making a squeak. You can do the squeak with your bottom lip high on the top teeth, or even all the way up to the gum line.

You can also play pitches in this position. The only thing you can't do is tongue on the lips. For that, you will need to drag the whole setup downwards, as it says in the book. But you only attempt this downward motion AFTER the other things are in place. Otherwise, you are attempting to do too much at once.

As for the jaw bouncing, I need more information to understand it. I assume that it happens only when you tongue on the lips? Please fill us in here.

Bob - Thank you, sir! You are more than kind.

Jeff

[samwise]

"You said that you have your bottom lip under your top lip and rolled inside your teeth. I can see how you would have to manipulate your tonguing with that set up. Jeff spells out pretty clearly that the lips are not sucked behind the teeth and that the lips should be more or less even. Although you haven’t mentioned which, if any, exercises you are doing, I would say that you have not yet started to do BE. I am pretty sure of this because roll in uses very little pressure (your said you need lots). Pressure will close off the note in roll in, at least for me."

I'm sorry, I was a little unclear. The bottom lip going under the top and the pressure is from my current setup, I'm trying to correct the roll-in by doing BE/BE exercises.

"When you do the lip clamp, you first let the teeth close together (lining up - moving jaw forward). Then roll both lips in so the red disappear. Then while holding this you move the tongue forward so it opens up the closed teeth. You should feel both lips with the tongue. Then you hold this (the isometric part)."

My air stream is going upwards and hitting the bottom of my nose, is this OK or am I overlooking something?

"Try this. Hold your left hand up to the bottom of your chin. Now, press your hand upward against the chin while staccato tonguing eight notes on a G2, keeping the tongue as RELAXED as possible. If the chin bounces, increase the upward hand pressure until it stays still. If this is successful, notice what's happening differently with the tongue or jaw when the hand pressure is removed. Then, possibly, you can work on keeping things the same as you remove the "crutch.""

This is one of the tricks I tried a while ago and didn't have much luck with it, but I'll try to give it another go.

"BTW - Frodo sends his regards!"



"First, in doing lip clamp, I never specified "bottom edge of the teeth," as the degree that the bottom lip covers the top teeth varies according to the size of both top lip and teeth."

I think I misinterpreted line 4 on page 80, I'll give the section another read through.

"As for the jaw bouncing, I need more information to understand it. I assume that it happens only when you tongue on the lips? Please fill us in here."

No, this is for my standard tonguing; it's not really related to BE but I thought it might be due to my current lip setup and therefore didn't break it up into a separate post.

Thanks for all the encouragement and suggestions guys, it's really appreciated.