Joined: 25 Dec 2001 Posts: 678 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: Trumpet modification - Pitch Center
So I'm curious after watching a recent video from Monette, what is actually done to a trumpet to make what he calls "constant pitch centered" improvements?
Curious as I am currently tinkering on a project trumpet, and wondering where I should be looking/experimenting with? Any others ever think about this? _________________ ------
trumpetLINKS: https://www.trumpetLINKS.com
BachLoyalist: https://www.bachloyalist.com
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet modification - Pitch Center
interfx wrote:
...
What is being modified to result in such improvements? I've often wondered about the various "tweaking" done to trumpets that make such differences?
What areas are being tweaked?
- mouthpiece gap?
- removing solder blobs?
- ensuring rounded tuning slides, not slightly collapsed?
- valve alignment
Curious as I am currently tinkering on a project trumpet, and wondering where I should be looking/experimenting with? Any others ever think about this?
-------------------------------------------
My guess is that Monette does something similar to PVA and 'blueprinting'. It would be interesting to know whether the technique can be done strictly by measure and adjust, or if there is substantial test playing and 'qualitative skill' needed in the process.
My DIY thoughts - (and yes if have, and I think there was improvement)
1) mouthpiece gap - verify that gap is not more than 1/8 inch. If less that 1/8, do the 'paper strip' testing to see if increased gap gives noticeable improvement. If more than 1/8, try other mpc to see if any are a better fit.
2) if there are any deep indents or flat areas on tubing, see if they can be removed. If you don't have proper repair tech ball / dent tools, try using a smooth rod of hard plastic about 1/2 inch diameter as a 'burnishing tool' to massage the dent from the outside of the tube. Pressure on the round area OUTSIDE the dent toward the CENTER of the dent will raise the lowered dent. You might want to rub a candle on the area being treated so the wax film acts as a lubricant.
3) valve alignment - that's a biggie. My criteria is that all the valve combos should have good and similar 'tone quality' - none should be 'dull' or 'fuzzy' or 'airy' or 'stuffy'.
For testing -
increased UP alignment can be done by unscrewing top valve cap.
decreased DOWN can be done by unscrewing top cap
increased DOWN can be done by unscrewing valve button
On my horns the UP position was good on all, so I didn't make any changes to UP.
DOWN changes where made by making small spacers that fit between the bottom of the valve button and the stem. OD of spacer just slightly larger than OD of stem to not interfere with downstroke.
I used thin plastic similar to a report cover, and some thin automotive gasket material. Rubber didn't work very well - too compressible. Used a 'leather punch' for the small hole, and a larger punch made from a rifle cartridge case. Use a hockey puck as a surface under the material being punched.
Use the appearance of visible valve ports only as a rough guide. There are many other ports and alignment that can't be seen. Judge by 'tone quality' and strive for the best overall compromise.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Trumpet modification - Pitch Center
Quote:
My DIY thoughts - (and yes if have, and I think there was improvement)
1) mouthpiece gap - verify that gap is not more than 1/8 inch. If less that 1/8, do the 'paper strip' testing to see if increased gap gives noticeable improvement. If more than 1/8, try other mpc to see if any are a better fit.
While gap can have a big effect on the stability of a trumpet, I wouldn't stress too hard on the 1/8th number.
Gap size is a player preference and differs with trumpet/mouthpiece choice.
1/8 is just where the average person and mouthpiece seems to work, but is not the magic number that makes all trumpets play better.
One of my models has a gap of .090. I feel that the horn speaks the way I want it to with a smaller gap.
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject:
If the tweaks only took 45 minutes, as Mr. Monette posted, they would have to be relatively easy, small adjustments that would bring the horn alive.
I can think of turning the waterkey screw slightly tighter, putting on clip-on patches on valve knuckles, changing the waterkey cork, adjusting mouthpiece gap (as noted) and a better mouthpiece.
Master craftsmen such as Mr. Monette have the experience, it's great he wants to share it.
-Lionel _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Posts: 93 Location: Between Brussels and Ankara
Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:59 pm Post subject:
Thanks for opening this thread.
Everything they do looks so great and "mysterious" (they present it that way). Is there a secret ?
But is there really something special ?
By special I mean something that only a handful of manufacturer can do for an even smaller handful of customer.
As previously said, 45 minutes can only be small tweaks here and there.
An other important question : would you say that the horn they used to exemplify was a "bad horn in bad shape" or juste the average ? _________________ Yamaha YTR-6335RC
Yamaha YFH-8310ZG
Joined: 10 Mar 2012 Posts: 25 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:33 pm Post subject:
michael_bxl wrote:
Thanks for opening this thread.
Everything they do looks so great and "mysterious" (they present it that way). Is there a secret ?
But is there really something special ?
By special I mean something that only a handful of manufacturer can do for an even smaller handful of customer.
As previously said, 45 minutes can only be small tweaks here and there.
An other important question : would you say that the horn they used to exemplify was a "bad horn in bad shape" or juste the average ?
It was a brand new Bach Strad, hand-picked and play tested by Mike Thompson of Thompson Music. Mike hand-picks Bach trumpets at the Bach factory every year so that he can have the best he can find for his stock at Thompson Music to sell to his customers. This was one of those. Mike is extremely knowledgeable and experienced.
You said "Everything they do looks so great and "mysterious" (they present it that way)." It's not meant to be "mysterious." Monette simply does not reveal all of their proprietary methods for working on instruments.
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:46 am Post subject:
bjcord wrote:
michael_bxl wrote:
Thanks for opening this thread.
Everything they do looks so great and "mysterious" (they present it that way). Is there a secret ?
But is there really something special ?
By special I mean something that only a handful of manufacturer can do for an even smaller handful of customer.
As previously said, 45 minutes can only be small tweaks here and there.
An other important question : would you say that the horn they used to exemplify was a "bad horn in bad shape" or juste the average ?
It was a brand new Bach Strad, hand-picked and play tested by Mike Thompson of Thompson Music. Mike hand-picks Bach trumpets at the Bach factory every year so that he can have the best he can find for his stock at Thompson Music to sell to his customers. This was one of those. Mike is extremely knowledgeable and experienced.
You said "Everything they do looks so great and "mysterious" (they present it that way)." It's not meant to be "mysterious." Monette simply does not reveal all of their proprietary methods for working on instruments.
Mike helped me get my octaves in tune on on my main horn. In that case it was a gap issue and by trying different sleeves on a Stomvi mouthpiece we got them lined up. I was consulting on my difficulty in hitting high D on the horn. High C, no issue. High E, no issue. High D, really difficult to hit.
While the Monette mouthpieces might assist, it might also be that the one demonstrated had a more optimal gap. Or the manufacturing quality and consistency of Monette’s mouthpieces might be, and probably is, better.
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 6:55 am Post subject:
I also thought is intended to be mysterious.
If was not meant to be mysterious, why not just say what he’s doing? _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com www.youtube.com/lipshurt
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:33 am Post subject:
lipshurt wrote:
... why not just say what he’s doing?
------------------------------
My impression from Monette's saying he wanted the info going to a major instrument maker, is that he wants to sell the details of the process.
My guess is that the major makers already know what would be involved, and know how to do it. The issue is cost - primarily the highly skilled labor that would be needed. And of course there's the concern of training additional workers who would be able to do the work. Sure, guys like Monette, and other skilled builders and repair pros are around now, but they've got exceptional talent and experience. How does that cottage industry model get incorporated into large scale mfg?
Then add on the potential risk of new instruments being returned for warranty service because the buyer is unsatisfied after paying a premium price and believing that the extra-$$ tweaks didn't make a difference. The cost for handling those 'come-backs' would have to be included in the original wholesale price to retailers.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 7:44 am Post subject:
For as far back as I can remember , Dave Monette has been guarded about his methods , and rightfully so. Having observed and measured many examples of his mouthpieces and instruments, there are design features that are unique and others that are common to production instruments. Clearly, the greatest impact is in the design of his mouthpieces. Any capable mouthpiece maker can measure and document the many aspects, but one thing that’s not so easy to determine is temper of his mouthpieces. As a repairman I can attest to the softness of his mouthpieces and trumpets.
What I’ve gleaned about his instruments is they’re very well constructed, the mechanical fit is among the highest standards of clearances and assembly. A prerequisite for the credibility of any maker, standards set by Vincent Bach and Reynold Schilke are being achieved by many including Monette.
So the question is, what things can be done to make a production trumpet play so much better? The answer lies in attention to details, often overlooked by the manufacturer. To this end I’ve openly shared many of my findings here on the Trumpet Herald regarding perturbation or deviations found throughout the bore. How I go about making corrections during blueprinting is understandably proprietary. To paraphrase one of my most respected clients, “I don’t need to know, I just want to play it.”
For more about our blueprinting service, visit our website for details.
I hope this is helpful. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet modification - Pitch Center
interfx wrote:
What areas are being tweaked?
- mouthpiece gap?
- removing solder blobs?
- valve alignment
All of the above are possibilities. But, I'd also like to add de-stressing the braces
to the list. The sound and resonance of an instrument can be greatly hindered
from too much tension.
Curiously, did you happen to notice that Charlie did NOT play his original mouthpiece
in the "after" adjustments? I would have liked to see that as well in comparing the two.
Joined: 10 Mar 2012 Posts: 25 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Trumpet modification - Pitch Center
Yamahaguy wrote:
interfx wrote:
What areas are being tweaked?
- mouthpiece gap?
- removing solder blobs?
- valve alignment
All of the above are possibilities. But, I'd also like to add de-stressing the braces
to the list. The sound and resonance of an instrument can be greatly hindered
from too much tension.
Curiously, did you happen to notice that Charlie did NOT play his original mouthpiece
in the "after" adjustments? I would have liked to see that as well in comparing the two.
Interesting idea, but the main point of the video was to show how consistent Dave can make the horn play through his adjustments, and that is predicated on the mouthpiece also responding consistently. You can't 'dial in' a horn when the mouthpiece doesn't respond consistently through the instrument's range, and it wouldn't make much sense to put the inconsistent mouthpiece back into the horn after everything has been finely tuned. That would just bring back a lot of the inconsistency that you can hear at the beginning.
I think the video makes more sense as is, because it clearly illustrates the progression from inconsistent to consistent. Dave accomplishes that first and foremost by using a mouthpiece that responds consistently, which is arguably the most crucial aspect of achieving consistency, and he then further dials in the pitch-center of the horn through its partials and valves.
Very interesting video. I can't say that I'm a fan of Monette equipment, or of Dave himself. But he's certainly entitled to his proprietary methods. It's obviously working for him, which is evident by the wide variety of players who use his equipment, and manufacturers who attempt to copy his designs, both in how the equipment looks and plays.
I'm also surprised at the lack of professionalism displayed by a member of the retail community towards Dave and his company, and have noticed it several times recently.
I'm also thankful for the great professionalism displayed by a member of the retail and repair community who always contributes to these discussions. He does incredible work.
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:45 pm Post subject:
The video reminds me once again that anything you do to a horn may change it, for better or worse. It's taken me a long time to learn that, I used to dismiss a lot of it as mumbo-jumbo, but when I had a mouthpiece consultation w/KO of Stomvi USA on mouthpiece sleeves, I got a hit upside the head that yes, small things can make big differences. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Trumpet modification - Pitch Center
Yamahaguy wrote:
All of the above are possibilities. But, I'd also like to add de-stressing the braces
to the list. The sound and resonance of an instrument can be greatly hindered
from too much tension.
Before you all accuse me of “getting in the weeds”, hear me out.
There is a service we provide we call Resonance Enhancement cryogenic stress relief. Osmun Brass and Wayne Tanabe’s Brass Bow were the first shops to offer this unique aftermarket service. This deep freezing process removes stress, mimicking what occurs naturally over time. Powell Flutes and Sonare have been treating their instruments cryogenically for decades now. Yamaha has also joined the ranks of this practice, and there’s a German manufacturer that refers to their treatment as artificial aging. Adams Percussion has hyper cooled their tympani bowls with liquid nitrogen.
Something that was once considered “Voodoo” is now common practice in our industry.
Folks that have tried my blueprinted and Resonance Enhanced Bach Bb are amazed at how well it plays.
Since the entire cycle takes days to complete, we like to run ours over weekends. Instruments arriving on or before a Thursday can be ready to ship by the following Tuesday.
I’d like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude for the support I’ve enjoyed from the Trumpet Herald community. I look forward to resuming my work and music making. In the meantime be safe, stay healthy. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
Posted: Sat May 09, 2020 2:51 pm Post subject:
I am just a local repair tech. Straighten damaged horns, solder damaged horns, replace broken parts, etc. I am certainly not in the league of the top techs on here.
Having said that, one thing I have had major success with is valve alignment. Aligning a horn that is badly off makes an amazing difference in the way it plays. I have aligned valves for many years but just with the old mirror and light or a borescope. My first experience with it making a huge difference was years back. I traded a Yamaha 6335S (I'm just not a Yamaha guy) for an Olds Super. The previous owner of the Olds hated it and I wanted to give it a try. It played poorly. I checked the alignment and it was way off. After aligning it became my main axe for many years. I've done valve alignments for local players and sometimes it is quite an eye opener. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
I also thought is intended to be mysterious.
If was not meant to be mysterious, why not just say what he’s doing?
Because he wants to sell his process to a manufacturer, so it's about getting $ rather than just 'giving every student a horn'.
I think he should get offer training courses for instrument technicians on tweaking instruments, and then students can buy any production horn and take it to a 'monette-authorised tweaker' and get their horn adjusted there after market.
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