Mt Vernon Bach 3c for cornet?

[olds1959special]

Is this a good mpc for a beginner for cornet?

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

Maybe, mouthpieces are personal and it depends on you. If you have never played before then you'll appreciate having a qualified teacher to help guide you. Bach Mt. Vernon 3C trumpet mouthpieces are much sought after and command a high price in good condition. I don't know if that holds true on the cornet mouthpieces but I would hold onto it and never part with it if I were you.
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[delano]

No, probably not, too big.

[Crazy Finn]

I think it'll be fine. My college trumpet prof thought that all beginners should start with a 3C.

After teaching beginner band for almost 20 years, I don't think the specific size matters too much.

A 3C isn't excessively wide or deep and has a nice rim. That's pretty much all you can ask for.

The Mt. Vernon 3C's were produced until the early 60's when production was moved to Elkhart. The trumpet ones fetch a pretty penny, not sure about the cornet ones.
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[blbaumgarn]

I currently use a bach 3c on my old king cornet and I like it just fine. Wish I had one from the Mr. Vernon days. I had a Mr. Vernon 1c that I sold along with my Benge. That was a compounding of a mistake. I think a 3c would be fine for beginner as well as experienced player of cornet. That's MHO
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[kehaulani]

[delano]

Mouthpiece choice is never a topic that's decided by democratic principles. Nobody can advise you via the internet which mp is appropriate for you. Also there is not ANY consensus about what a good mp is for a beginner is. It seems that some teachers don't care or advise a 3C as a possibility. Most don't. But the comment above makes no sense because your question was not about the Bach 3C in general but about the Bach Mt. Vernon 3C. The trumpet Mt. V. mp's are very expensive and I have no direct experience with them. Second, the Bach trumpet and cornet mp's share the same cups. Three, I do own a Kanstul made B4S ( a Monette copy) that according to the Kanstul and the Monette website is based on the Mt V. 3C and that is much bigger than the more modern 3C. In fact it is about the same diameter as the more recent Bach 1 1/2/C. And that is quite a big mouthpiece, played by mostly orchestral players in the classical tradition.
And maybe there are teachers that believe that the 1 1/2 C is the right mp for beginners but my advice should be to look for another teacher. Here the Monette comparison list:


B4SD 1.070 M 0.828 0.665 M 7.5 Mt. Vernon 3B / Modern 1-1/2B
B4S S2 1.070 M 0.828 0.665 M 5.5 Mt. Vernon 3C / Modern 1-1/2C
B4D 1.080 S 0.828 0.664 S 7.5 1-1/2B
B4 S3 1.080 S 0.828 0.664 S 6 1-1/2C
B4LD/2 S3 1.080 M 0.820 0.664 M 6 1-1/2C
B4LD S1 1.080 M 0.820 0.664 M 4 1-1/2D
B4L S1 1.080 M 0.820 0.664 M 3.5 1-1/2E

But look for yourself: https://www.monette.net/comparison-chart

Close reading of the Monette comparison-chart shows that the Mt. V mp's are in fact a little bit BIGGER than the Bach 1 1/2C. A modern 3C is by Monette a mp. in the B6 range.

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

It should be noted there are variations in sizing depending on where the measurements are taken. I have as yet to see any of these comparison charts ever agree on cup diameter measurements. The cup contour is different on the Mt. Vernon 3C compared to modern Back 3C's. None of this has anything to do with the OP's question. None of us can answer this for them other than to recommend a competent teacher. I have seen beginners do quite well on a 1-1/2C, 1C, 5C, 6C, 7C, 10-1/2C and the full compliment of competitive variants thereof. It depends mostly on personal comfort, not analytical measurements with a dose of personal opinion.
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[delano]

There is no dispute that the MtV 3C is bigger or maybe feels bigger than the modern 3C. And mr. Monette is right with his description of his own mouthpieces at least that his B4 can be compared with a Mt V 3C and not with a modern 3C and that it feels like a Bach 1 1/2 C. I own the B4S and a Bach 1 1/2C and they feel quite the same. I persoy prefer experience above your speculations about measurement methods and other things you still have to see. And I don’t know whether a beginner can start on a modern 1 1/2 rim but I don’t think so. In fact I don’t know personally any player personally who plays bigger than a 3C including several pros. More in the legit world I presume.

[Crazy Finn]

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

[delano]

Mr. Crazy Finn, good post and I agree till a certain point. It is true that in the old days beginners started on whatever there was at disposal. I myself started on trombone in '62 or so with a small Courtois mouthpiece and played it for years without problems. Till I came in a real trombone section and they forced me to a Bach 11C and that was a great experience.
The real problem is: if a beginner can start on any mouthpiece there is no thread, everything is OK, a 1X? Great. A 14A4? Excellent. So the answer to a question as the OP's is always: Yes it's good for a beginner, why? Because everything is good for a beginner. The problem that the argument of the old days is just that, of the old days. You can say to your kid: why do you need a computer, iPad, cell phone? I did grow up without them and see, everything is fine. Further I suppose that in the old days the system was more one of survival of the fittest. The beginners who were lucky started on reasonable equipment, the ones without that luck changed soon to clarinet, tuba, violin or American football. So we are lucky in this time that we can choose and find maybe a mouthpiece that fits a particular person instead of playing whatever what.
In the end it's possible that the OP will be very pleased with his MtV 3C but I only said probably not. I play the trumpet now for 11 years or so and it's just the last year and a half that I can play a real 3C size though I will never be a fan of the Bach 3C (I own a Bach 3C corp. small letters). A 1 1/2 is still problematic for me. I played for years a Yamaha 14B4GP, just a little bit smaller than the 3C. Also a Warburton Arturo cup, though a copy of mr. Sandovals MtV 3C still a bit smaller.
I am not alone, I remember an article here by Jens Lindemann in which he warned for playing too big a mouthpiece and in which he described the general habit in the trumpetworld to do so.

[delano]

[harryjamesworstnightmare]

Delano,
You have no idea what is the proper mouthpiece size for the OP. Nor do I. It seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Let them find a good teacher and work it out. In the end, none of this discussion matters one bit.
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[Crazy Finn]

There are a couple of issues with mouthpieces and beginners.

- First, they're beginners. They're not good at trumpet (or cornet), yet. Thus, it's difficult for them to tell if a mouthpiece is good for them. Secondly, it's difficult for a listener or teacher to tell, because... well, they're not that good, yet. Listen to mouthpiece 1: well, sound ok. Listen to mouthpiece 2: well, still sound like they're a beginner. You can't hear a difference, cause... beginner.
So, that's an issue.

- There's a lot of stuff going on with playing trumpet. There's embouchure, air support, posture, breathing.... and on and on. If you hear a problem, it's likely to be one of these things - or something else I didn't even mention because that's a only a start. Is it the mouthpiece? Maybe, but it's more likely to be some other, more fundamental issue.

- Due to the myriad of issues I just outlined, the key to improvement is consistency and practice. Hopefully, as a teacher, you can get to the student to play the right way. The key is then for them to do those correct things while practicing at home when you - the teacher - are not there. Inserting a variable, like changing the mouthpiece - could change things so there is less consistency there. It might not, but it very well could. So, I tend to avoid that, if I can.

- However, sometimes - you DO hear something and think... gee I wonder if this student would do better on a (blank) mouthpiece. Or the student says, this doesn't feel good, it... (something) - like the rim is sharp or the tone is fuzzy or ... whatever. Then, it might be worth trying something - especially if they're the ones mentioning it.

The real problem is, it's hard to know what is good for any player. That's true of experienced players as well as pretty new players. At least seasoned players have a lot of experience to rely on and when they play a note on a new mouthpiece they have a lot of stuff they can compare it to. Does it feel good? Does it respond quickly in a variety of registers? How flexible is it? How stable is it? Intonation? High notes? Endurance?

The less experienced player has less of these benchmarks to draw upon. It's hard to tell if the mouthpiece plays better in tune, in general, let alone if you struggle with intonation because you're a beginner. That goes for most of the questions I posed earlier.

Still, sometimes, I do have players try different sizes and things are somewhat noticeable as improvements or somewhat worse. There's a question of how much 2-5 minutes is worth on making a judgement, but you have to start somewhere. The real question is after a couple of weeks, how is it working. Sadly, we don't have access to multiple dimensions and can't compare outcomes and results with mouthpiece B or C or A - the original, if no change occurred.

Frankly, after playing for over 30 years... I still wonder about mouthpieces. When I practiced a ton and was performing regularly, I was pretty particular about my mouthpieces. I liked one particular cornet mouthpiece, maybe it had a little different throat than the other. Sometimes I lost track of which was which and it's possible I played on the other. I also tinkered around with a 1 1/2C as opposed to my standard 3C's, and there was definitely a difference.

After taking a lengthy break, I came back and played mostly with a Stork 3C that I had acquired in the meantime (my old 3C on my trumpet has a worn rim). It seemed fine. However, it's hard to resist tinkering around. My endurance isn't what it was (cause, practice) and there were situations I needed a bit more brilliance at the expense of tone that didn't matter much in that particular setting, so I got a Stork 4D - cause why not (plus music store employee discount). It seemed a bit brighter, but worked fine. I also got a Shew Jazz, cause, why not and played that most of the past year. Is it better than the Stork 3C? 4D? Frankly, I really don't know.

All that is to basically say, it's hard to know. It's hard for me to know, it's much harder for someone with very limited experience to know.

So, it's less than ... it doesn't matter which mouthpiece the beginner starts on. It's more like, they have to start on something and until they actually improve, it's really difficult to know what would be better, and even when you're pretty good it's hard to know. So, yeah, just pick something and go with it.

Some extreme sizes were brought up in a earlier post. I never advocated for these, actually. I merely said that once when I had student play on a 1C, it worked just fine. Would a smaller mouthpiece have been better? Possibly. How much difference does it make? Well, that's an excellent question. I suspect the answer is some, but probably less than you think for most people. Still, maybe.

Jen's thoughts on mouthpieces was brought up. I actually agree completely with it. It's a good counter-reaction to the "bigger is better" than has usually guided people. I always describe mouthpieces less as bigger is better, but more as shoe sizes. You want to wear the right size shoes, because it'll work better for you, you don't need bigger shoes to run faster. The bigger is better mentality was something that some of my teachers had (not all) that actually led me to the 3C and then a 1C and then a bored out 1C as a high schooler. When I arrived in college, my first professor had me move back to a 3C due to the lack on center in my tone and some decreases in range and flexibility. He wasn't wrong. I have tinkered around with even smaller sizes - I play a Yamaha 11B4 to test instruments on a semi-regular basis. However, I find that the smaller diameter doesn't work well for me - tone, attacks, response and flexibility all suffer. Also, oddly the 1C seems to work a bit better than the 1 1/2C - at least on my Bb's for some odd reason (it still has the shortcomings that I describe, previously). When I was tinkering around with Yamaha sizes many years ago, both the 14B4 and 14C4 seemed to work well for me, I really struggled to decide which was better - resulting in just sticking with my 3C. Should've kept the 14C4GP, as it worked great with my Eb trumpet.

I mentioned my preferences for beginner mouthpieces in my previous post - with the caveat that we don't really know what will work for an individual. As I said, something middle of the road with a friendly rim and not too deep cup is probably decent, at least, for the most number of people. The Yamaha 11B4 is all of these things, as well as the 14B4 - though slightly wider. Despite poster Delano's dislike of the 3C, I also think it's a good candidate for those same reasons. This is NOT because I play one, but because I've seen lots of experienced players move to it and find greater success. It has a shallower cup and friendlier rim than the Bach 7C. People are sometimes weary of the slightly wider diameter - HOWEVER, I find that a lot of players do well with a slight increase in diameter because it allows a bit more of the lip to participate. Narrower, diameters actually require more focus with the embouchure, which certainly works for some. There is usually limitations to this as the wider one ventures, the more developed one's embouchure needs to be - some things like the 1X or 1C, or possibly the 1 1/2C might be too wide. I actually think the width of the 3C is maybe a bit more accessible to more players than the 7C is. Ideally, maybe something in between might be even better, but both the 5C and 5B are mouthpieces with deep cups and somewhat sharp and unforgiving rims, which I count as potential problems for many player. But, I'm splitting hairs here. Frankly anything between a 3C of any era and a 7C of any era in diameter and with a moderate depth should be just fine.

In the end, we're all individuals. Not all mouthpiece work for all players, and you really can't tell without trying. But, beginners have to start somewhere, so it's really just picking something reasonable
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[delano]

Very good story and I think that I agree with most, maybe all of it.
When I started on the trumpet (I played the slide trombone before for over 25 years) I did so many things wrong and the mouthpiece of the trumpet was a problem in itself. So small and with such a high resistance for me.
Over the years I collected a lot of mouthpieces, first all kind of 7C's but later I switched to the Yamaha 14B4 GP (I still use that one sometimes) and Warburton 4M later the Arturo cup. The Bach 3C I own has never been a succes, couldn't cope with the sound. Same with all the Currys I bought (mostly for cornet). An important thing I learned is that it makes not much sense to try mp's all through another, you have to find out what might work and spend then a few months with it, then you will have an answer. Now I play mostly the Yamaha 14D4 on my piston trumpets (YTR6345, Selmer B700 tuning bell, Selmer Concept TT, all in 0.463 bore), a 14E4 on cornet and a Breslmair G2 on my new rotary. I have the feeling that the development to a little bit bigger mp's has been a very natural one, I never felt an obligation to go bigger but there was always some reason. Still I play in fact on middle of the road mouthpieces though the Breslmair is big and very open but that's with a rotary and that's different stuff.

[olds1959special]

As I play the horn more I'm still finding the high notes to be challenging. All my research indicates a smaller mouthpiece would help with this. Also my goal is to play jazz mainly, and not so much classical. So I plan to try a Bach 7C and 10 1/2 C. I found a newly silver plated Mt Vernon 10 1/2 C, and a couple 7C's on ebay so I'm looking forward to trying these.

[delano]

I never played a 10 1/2 C but there is a certain group of especially jazz players that is very pleased with them. Seem to be well-balanced mouthpieces. The modern Bach 7C has not a very pleasant rim, I can't speak for you but lots of people have problems with that rim.
There are other options, as I said I own a Bach cornet 7C from from the 60ties that is the best 7C cup I know. (vincent bach corp, no dot), so an older Bach could do the trick. Also you can try the Yamaha 11C4/7C that's a cheap and reliable alternative. I own also a new Bach 7C and a new Benge 7C, obviously from the same factory cause they are perfect identical except for the rim. The Bach is sharp and maybe difficult to play, the Benge is perfect. For about the same size you could try the Curry Precision (standard) mouthpieces in the 8.5 range. They tend to be quite bright though.
Also the Yamaha 11B4 is quite a good mouthpiece, I preferred it above the 11C4. Don't think that the high register goes THAT much easier on smaller mouthpieces, I have the same range on my smallest and my biggest mouthpiece though my endurance with the high notes is on the smaller ones slightly better. Most 7C's tend to have quite deep C-cups and for the high register more shallow seems to make more difference than smaller.

[zaferis]

My reccommendation for beginners, is always to start in the middle of the road in size and depth.. Bach 7C, Bach 6 (one of my favs), Yamaha 14B4 or C4.. but mostly I would add NEW.

I think I saw you had made a couple of posts about your new cornet and playing, which you included a photo. In that photo, though hard to see, the mouthpiece looked very worn.
Get a NEW one. Unless the piece is in A+ condition or you're getting a very cheriished/historic piece.. trumpet/cornet pieces are cheep enough not to mess with used.

Then down the road (years probably) as you develope your skills you'll probably start to look for subtle improvements or variations.

$59
http://mouthpieceexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=197_198_660_659&products_id=14830
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[Crazy Finn]