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nonchalant Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2017 Posts: 34
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:07 pm Post subject: Valve alignment or greedy? |
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Hey All,
If you got a horn you really enjoy, that is stock, is it still worth while to get a valve alignment or is that just being greedy?
In my previous experience getting my C, Eb, and picc aligned it was great, but these were good, and came back very good/great. The difference here is what if you have a great horn, or at least something you like a lot, is it still worth while to align the valves. Is the grass always greener? |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Why Would you be greedy? If you think it would help, why not? I have had all my horns done. I sent some out and did some myself.
Pete |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1551 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Definitely worth it. I have had it done on one great horn and it got better. Now I have it done on every horn I have that is worthy of an alignment. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1551 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Pete wrote: | Why Would you be greedy? If you think it would help, why not? I have had all my horns done. I sent some out and did some myself.
Pete |
How did you do it yourself? What equipment did you use? _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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Pete Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2001 Posts: 1739 Location: Western Massachusetts
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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cgaiii wrote: | Pete wrote: | Why Would you be greedy? If you think it would help, why not? I have had all my horns done. I sent some out and did some myself.
Pete |
How did you do it yourself? What equipment did you use? |
I use an endoscope for the up stoke, and a good small flashlight for the downstroke. I use Valentino synthetic pads and I make shims with a business card and a paper punch and cut them to the desired outer diameter if I need them. It isn’t as accurate as a PVA but I get them to play better.
My 8310Z and my Bach 43 were done by Jim Becker at Osmun, and I did my 38B and my Yamaha cornet as well as my C trumpet and piccolo.
Jim does great work by the way. my method takes a bit of time, and I did them because I wanted to try my hand at it. The endoscope takes a little maneuvering. One of my trumpet tech friends showed me how to do it. You visually line up the ports as best that you can.
I am sure I will get some negative comments about this, but it doesn’t hurt the horn. And you can always put it back to where it was if you don’t like the result as long as you keep track of the parts.
Pete |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1551 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Pete.
Like you, I leave my best horns to the professionals.
I was just curious how you did it and would not mind playing with some lesser horns for fun. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2416 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Valve alignment or greedy? |
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nonchalant wrote: | If you got a horn you really enjoy .... |
Why change a horn you really enjoy?
I got an alignment on one of my horns. It didn't change the way the horn played. However, the valves made more noise (hard rubber washers vs felt washers). I also had a problem with one of the valves sticking, which likely was in part was due to the age of the valves, but which resolved after reversing the valve alignment.
If you think a valve align helps, that great. And I'm sure, that for some horns, it provides a positive benefit. But I'm not sure I'd get one on a horn that already plays the way I like.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:29 am Post subject: |
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I have played horns that were a mess due to poor alignment, and a PVA worked miracles. On the other hand, I have seen horns play just great with obvious mis-alignment or port constriction issues which were then unimpacted by alignment. So, when it works, I don't mess with it - at least if it costs money.
The valves are a turbulent zone and the rules kind of fly out the window. Sometimes what matters on one horn is completely irrelevant on another. So, if you choose to spend money on an alignment on a horn that is already performing to your expectations, you may simply be throwing money away - or not. You might get a surprise, but there are lotto tickets for that too. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Valve alignment or greedy? |
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nonchalant wrote: | ... If you got a horn you really enjoy,
...
but these were good, and came back very good/great.
...
what if you have a great horn, or at least something you like a lot, is it still worth while to align the valves. |
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Changing the valve alignment will likely result in some playing difference - but it might be necessary to do careful testing and listening for the difference to be noticeable.
THIS IS IMPORTANT - The alignment changes were done to achieve improvement as judged by whoever made the changes. You or someone else might not think there is an improvement.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Valve alignment or greedy? |
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TrumpetMD wrote: | nonchalant wrote: | If you got a horn you really enjoy .... |
Why change a horn you really enjoy?
I got an alignment on one of my horns. It didn't change the way the horn played. However, the valves made more noise (hard rubber washers vs felt washers). I also had a problem with one of the valves sticking, which likely was in part was due to the age of the valves, but which resolved after reversing the valve alignment.
If you think a valve align helps, that great. And I'm sure, that for some horns, it provides a positive benefit. But I'm not sure I'd get one on a horn that already plays the way I like.
Mike |
I’m pretty much in this camp also, and had a similar experience where all the alignment seemed to do was make the valves noisier. That being said, it was done by a local tech, not one of the recognized guys (and was pretty much the last time I had anything done locally, now I send the horns out for anything beyond very simple repairs).
Sometimes times fixing something that’s not broken is not the best idea, though in general I think a valve alignment done properly improves many or even most horns, just not necessarily always.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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nonchalant Regular Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2017 Posts: 34
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Thanks all for the responses.
There seems to be 2 camps here, better is better, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. These were kinda what I was thinking before I posted too. If you have something great, is it really worth messing around with a good thing?
I've had great experiences with valve alignment, but never ended up doing my Bb - there was no urgent need to tweak it. I've been looking at a new to me C and it plays really great. I asked the owner if they had the valves aligned and they said no. This got me think about the topic, and if the grass could be even greener on the other side. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Interesting that you would equate an excellent result with greed...
The purpose for a precision valve alignment is to bring the instrument closer to the specifications of its design. The idea is that the design is the optimum result, but the reality of manufacture is less than that optimum because of human, economic, time and other factors. Correcting port alignments, in concept, brings the instrument closer to its optimum, but there are other issues that should also be addressed.
That is why high-level technicians, such as James Becker, Flip Oakes and others, package their valve alignments with other corrective measures. You might not initially like the feel of the corrected instrument, but the instrument itself will be better than before, according to its designed optimum.
You may need to grow, as a player. You might need to change your mouthpiece setup. You may have added accessories that no longer give the benefit they brought to the less-than-optimum horn. I've experienced all of these. It might even be that your instrument is no longer a "match" for you, as a player, but the instrument will be a better instrument.
You may need to adjust your thinking. The idea that a less-than-optimum horn is somehow a better tool reveals shortcomings in our hearing (can we hear the inconstancies of tone and intonation?) and the limitations to our growth we have tolerated. Knowing that the instrument we play is performing at its best opens our thinking (our it should) to the opportunity we now have to grow to a higher level of musicianship. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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tptjazzboy28 Regular Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 63 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:55 am Post subject: |
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The best alignment experience I have ever had was from Jim Becker at Osmun. He aligned my 37 quite a few years ago and it really did come back as an easier and better sounding horn to play. As far as I was concerned, all of the positive results (more even pitch, evenness of sound, cleaner attack at soft volumes) all applied. Plus, I believe the old felts were included so I was able to put the horn back to pre-PVA condition. Voodoo or placebo? Possibly, but I was happy to give them my business _________________ Christopher Rymes
ACB- Nashville
PATRICK Mouthpieces
Belmont University
Nashville, TN |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Valve alignment or greedy? |
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TrumpetMD wrote: | I got an alignment on one of my horns. . the valves made more noise . . I also had a problem with one of the valves sticking, which likely was in part was due to the age of the valves, but which resolved after reversing the valve alignment. |
One feature of forums is the sharing of information that will benefit the members. You could save some members a lot of grief, Mike, if you would tell where you had the valve work done. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:56 am Post subject: |
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nonchalant wrote: | ... This got me think about the topic, and if the grass could be even greener on the other side. |
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A 'starting point' for considering a PVA (much more than just new felts) is if some valve combinations seem to work and sound better (the tone quality) than others, or if there is a particular valve or valve combination that is noticeably different.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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ken_k Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2011 Posts: 77 Location: Salem, SC
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Every horn can improve with a PVA so if you can afford it, why hesitate? _________________ Schilke 32HD Bb Trumpet
1956 Martin Committee #2
1972 Selmer Radial 75 Bb Trumpet
1976 Selmer Radial 99 C/Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 8315G Flugel
Schilke XA1 Cornet
Brasspire P7 Pocket |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 11:51 am Post subject: |
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If the horn plays great and isn't uneven with different valve combinations I'd leave it alone for now. When the pads wear out and things start to go south then might be a better time to consider an alignment. If you have $ to burn it wouldn't hurt to align gust for the piece of mind and to get felts that don't wear out nearly as fast if at all.
If you're concerned that the alignment fees are high then feel free to research cost and quality and go with best shop/deal you find. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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ken_k wrote: | Every horn can improve with a PVA so if you can afford it, why hesitate? |
This is not true.
Many horns will "improve" relative to what the player wants, and with regard to faithfulness to design intent, but some are unaffected - especially examples like an early Holton where they built in 8 bore sizes, but only three valve port sizes. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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adc Veteran Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2019 Posts: 119 Location: Elizabethtown PA
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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I do my own. I have an endoscope but prefer a mirror. You can buy one online. First check the up position by looking at the ports after removing the 2nd slide. If its off change the pad thickness.
For down alignment, remove the 2nd valve and bottom cap and use the mirror and a flashlight (go in from the bottom). For the 2nd valve, remove the 3rd valve (the port from the 2nd to 3rd valve is closer to the bottom.
Not saying it's as good as professional bc you can't do rotation but it works for me. _________________ Too many Old Cornets to Count |
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TrumpetImporter New Member
Joined: 20 May 2020 Posts: 2
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:14 pm Post subject: Valve Alignment or Greedy? |
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I would consider a valve alignment very important. I don't understand why you would be greedy. For years I played without a valve alignment and thought I didn't need it. Now I'm 61 and I can feel any alignment being out. Excess tension is more guesswork for the player. Every player has a choice on how they want their feel and response. About 10 years ago I decided to have a PVA Precision Valve Alignment done. I said " Wow" and suddenly everything was easier to play. I noticed I didn't have to work half as much as I did before. When I had the alignment done I was picking this guys brain and taking notes so later I could do it myself. I bought a borescope and a small flashlight and looked for Synthetic pads in different sizes. I chose Valentino as the supplier for the pads and they have several sizes to choose from. I ordered one of their kits with several sizes for upstroke and downstroke. The whole benefit is more color to the horn and response as well as slotting of pitches. I'm not greedy at all to help another player. |
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