Dark Tone on Trumpet

[Vin DiBona]

From GR's website.
https://grmouthpieces.blogspot.com/2013/04/bright-vs-dark-trumpet-sound.html
R. Tomasek

[Peck Time]

This is a great thread. I’ve often thought that there is a lack of thinking about ‘tone’ in general in the trumpet world.

Especially because the range of tones the trumpet (and cornet and flugel) can produce is mind-boggling!

Look at TrumpetHerald- we have a high notes forum, but we don’t have a tone forum!

I’m a saxophone player learning the trumpet, and with my saxophone students we do a lot of listening to other saxophone players. Knowing the sounds of Bird, Coltrane , Webster, Rollins, Dolphy, Desmond, etc is essential to a student as it gives them options for their own sound.

[Bflatman]

"Soft tones are dark. Loud tones are bright. Oral space is not significant. Air pressure is."

This makes no sense to me.

I play very soft tones and very loud tones and they sound exactly the same. just as bright and just as dark. No difference whatsoever just as long I am in control of the tone formation.

Am I doing something wrong here.

I always suspected I am a clueless hack this just confirms it.

[OldSchoolEuph]

[kalijah]

Myths continue to abound.

I am not saying that equipment does not influence the sound. It does. There is no doubt that a flugelhorn sounds different than a trumpet. And a jet-tone Al Hirt model sounds different than a Schilke 20. And there is also no doubt that different trumpets have varying influence on tone. But once you have selected the trumpet and mouthpiece you are going to play, THAT is a constant, and the dominant influence on the tone is the performance of the playing embouchure and dynamics. These are affected by the performance of the pulsing aperture and the nonlinear impedance of the instrument.

Now, the embouchure performance can improve the tonal quality with practice. But this is not something that one controls instantaneously, but over time.

The point of my statement is that compared to air pressure variances to play various dynamics the oral space itself has negligible influence on tone color. If you're tone does not brighten as you play louder and darken as you play softer then you have some major embouchure performance issues. And you are also limited in musical expression. You may even BELIEVE that your tone quality does not change as you play louder. But if you were to look at the sound on a frequency analyzer your eyes would tell you what your ears, or brain, does not.

The fact that air pressure Influences brightness or darkness of tone versus changes in the oral space is one of the easiest things to demonstrate to yourself.

The reason that many people believe that the oral space influences tone is because when they engage in certain oral space manipulations they actually distort the embouchure
such that it then effects tone quality. Usually in a negative way.

[OldSchoolEuph]

Anyone who says the horn is not an amplifier, is in fact the one ignoring physics. Last time I checked, my horn was not plugged in for electrical energy to make that louder sound. Any resonator produces sound from kinetic energy. The only kinetic energy in this equation is the embouchure. The spectrum it provides forms the basis of the final sound - otherwise you could play a trumpet by rapping it with a hammer.

As for the rest, anyone who cannot help but be bright loud and dark soft, needs more practice.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[kalijah]

And it appears you don't understand what an amplifier is. The amplifier is where the power is provided. And that is NOT the instrument. The sound power source is the air pulses from the lips. Not the wiggling lips themselves.

The acousic impedace of the instrument alow the pulses of air to provide power to a standing RESONANCE tone. The power does NOT come from the instrument. Therefore it is not an amplifier. It is a resonator.

When the resonant tone in the instrument is the dominant resistance, then the air power supplied by the breath is efficient. And the power is then dominantly applied to the tone, not lost through the aperture, or an extremely arched tongue if that is in play.

The pressure variance in the mp cup also influences the cycling of the aperture and thereby, for louder tones, the non-sinusoidal state of the pulses. But the player controls the embouchure state, and thereby the pitch.

And as one increases dynamics the air pressure from the aperture become less sinusoidal and more "square". Only the note frequency resonates. The harmonics simply transmit out of the bell. They are also more directiinal in transmission than tne fundamental "played" frequency.

[kalijah]

https://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/people/publications/Fletcheretal1999.pdf

From the paper:

"It is well known that the upper partials of the trumpet sound increase in level relative to the fundamental at high loudness levels, giving incisive brilliance to the trumpets in the orchestra."

[JayKosta]

The physics of resonators can become complicated, so a simplified way of thinking about 'what they do' might be more easily understood.

My 'less technical view' is that a resonator (such as a trumpet) 'organizes' the sound into the various harmonics of the note being played. This organization of harmonics gives wave-like reinforcement and lessens wave cancellation, so the perceived output sound level is greater. The 'sum total of the absolute value' of the energy is not increased, but because the energy is now better organized it produces a louder sound.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[kalijah]

No Jay. The upper harmonic content doesn't resonate. The horn doesn't "organize" into harmonics. Since the pulsations are periodic from the aperture the harmonics are always integer multiples of the fundamental frequency of the tone played. It is not the instrument that does this. But it does influence the pulse shape and how the upper harmonics will transmit.

The harmonics are NOT individual tones or resonances. They are due to the non-sinusoidal pressure pulses.

In other words, the harmonics are produced at the aperture air pulses and then transmit right through the instrument.

[JayKosta]

[brassman8994]

One of the issues not mentioned is the use of recordings. Listen to recordings of Bud or Phil, two that have always been described as having a 'dark' tone quality. Record yourself often and actually listen to those recordings many times. Musicians generally do not like listening to themselves play, I hate it. But, recordings don't lie and you want to hear what the audience hears and make adjustments based on the other side of the instrument and not from behind the bell only. If your teacher wants more depth of tone (darker), then you must get your ears on the other side of the instrument to hear what he is hearing. Once you get used to recording yourself and get over hearing the mistakes etc. you can take an honest listen and get better. Self evaluation is key to improvement and recordings never lie, although the truth hurts sometimes haha!

[OldSchoolEuph]

Good advice on the recordings.

Study with those who have different approaches to tone production. As this thread demonstrates, there are different views on that, different approaches that work for different people. (and even some debate over the definitions of words - so dont get lost in this devolving into a debate over semantics).

The air column in the horn resonates. Complimentary and contradictory behaviors of the horn and its materials is a complex topic that just obscures the answer to the question. I think all above agree that the player ultimately is responsible for the outcome. How to make the air column resonate as you wish it to? Well, find the theory that works for you. It may not be the same as the guy next to you.

Listening to yourself is as core to that as practice.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Jerry]

[mike ansberry]

First I will apologize for not reading all of every comment. Not enough time. But I lean towards Kehaulani's idea of having the sound you want in your memory. Who do you listen to? What do you listen to? Do you have the sound you want in your memory? If you don't know where you want to go you will not get there.

Equipment does make a difference, but then again I have a friend who can sound dark with a 10s on a Bach 37.

Concept of sound. The term I like is spectrum of sound. Dark isn't dull. It is rich and chocolatey. Bright isn't necessarily shrill. It seems to me that it has more of the high overtones. It will project.

Ask your teacher for examples of the sound he wants you to get. Listen to them a lot and develop an idea of where you want to go.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

[JWG]

Based on my reading, acoustically speaking, brass instruments make sound via producing standing waves within the air column that resonates from your oral cavity/mouthpiece to the bell and back repeatedly. Reynold Schilke did some wonder demonstrations on the affect of the shape and volume of individual players' oral cavities on intonation and tone quality.

Generally speaking:

Dark tone = standing wave with few strong overtone frequencies or with overtone frequencies dampened in comparison to the fundamental tone and especially few overtones that clash with the fundamental tone.

Bright tone = standing wave with more strong overtone frequencies that tend to clash a bit more with the fundamental tone and other overtones. Our brains pick up on the internal harmonic dissonance as sound gets processed, and our brains alert us to this internal dissonance. For this reason, bright sounding instruments can cut through an entire orchestra and get our attention. Apparently, the slide trombone is technically the loudest instrument in terms of total decibel production, but trumpets get recognized as louder by listeners due to higher frequencies with more overtones.

How to get a darker tone: Simple, you have two major conical features on your trumpet, the mouthpiece and the bell. The bore expansion from tuning slide to bell is a minor conical feature. The cup and backbore of your mouthpiece have a great affect on the number and strength of overtones produced at the "head" of the standing wave. The bell shape affects the "tail" of the standing wave. A slow steady taper from the bell tail to the bead rim of the bell will dampen higher frequency overtones (compare a trumpet/cornet bell with a fluegelhorn), while an immediate quick taper close to the bead rim preserves those higher frequencies in the tighter tubing and allows those higher frequency overtones to reflect back to the mouthpiece within the standing wave creating a standing wave with more contentious frequencies that our brains perceive as brighter.

Note: As individuals' brains and ears all differ in shape, size, and neurology, we all perceive sound slightly differently. So, acoustic spectrographs constitute the only objective foundation we have to compare one sound with another. Thus, anytime someone wants to "split hairs" regarding whose tone is brighter or darker, one would need to compare acoustic spectrographs of the particular recordings to get an objective analysis.
_________________
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF

[Lionel]

The mouthpiece choices I've always made were done in order to make it easier to get the job done. Not to appease some kind of teacher. Lee Trevino was known to say,

"I've never known a golf teacher who I couldn't beat on the golf course" .

And I've never had a private lessons teacher who could play lead as well. If I do say so myself.

However the ability to tailor one's tone to a certain level of darkness has always intrigued me. A more conical shape to the mouthpiece cup oughta help. Another sure fire way of darkening the tone is to put an air pocket behind both upper & lower lips. Takes a little practice but by doing this you can tilt a trumpet to sound like a cornet. A cornet to sound flugel-like etc. This was a trick I learned from the Reinhardt system.

Some cats just like the feel of that air cushion too. They say it helps alleviate some of the arm pressure put upon the chops.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).

[Ed Kennedy]

[royjohn]

No one has mentioned that some embochure types are by nature bright. Type IV's like Wynton are inherently bright and Wynton resorts to very dark sounding equipment to produce a dark tone. You might investigate what your type is.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Bryant Jordan]

Hey Seth! Good to see a familiar face here! (we were in the same trumpet section in high school, assuming it's the Seth I'm thinking of).

For a darker tone, the best advice I can give is to have a established, laser focused vision on your dream sound. I envision a resonant, full, beautiful essence coming out of my bell, and it translates over pretty well.

Also, listen to players who have the sound you want (or close to it). That'll help you hone in on your dream sound, especially in all registers (not just the middle).

Keep it up! Let's go grab lunch sometime.