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Doc and Freddie Hubbard


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rothman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Doc and Freddie Hubbard Reply with quote

In terms of influences, it seems Doc at some point admired Freddie's playing and worked to achieve cascade running lines and patterns pioneered by Hubbard in the 60's.

There is a '69 - '72 recording of Doc on a rousing rock number not found on YT, now just an old cassette from unknown source. There is Fender Guitar out front, and a rapid tempo change in the middle..the solo work is fairly similar to..
@ 3:20 here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggw14bPa_fk

Link
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddiedie🎺👹🤯
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PH
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Doc and Freddie Hubbard Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
In terms of influences, it seems Doc at some point admired Freddie's playing and worked to achieve cascade running lines and patterns pioneered by Hubbard in the 60's.

There is a '69 - '72 recording of Doc on a rousing rock number not found on YT, now just an old cassette from unknown source. There is Fender Guitar out front, and a rapid tempo change in the middle..the solo work is fairly similar to..
@ 3:20 here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggw14bPa_fk

Link


This recording is Freddie, not Doc.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Doc and Freddie Hubbard Reply with quote

PH wrote:
rothman wrote:
In terms of influences, it seems Doc at some point admired Freddie's playing and worked to achieve cascade running lines and patterns pioneered by Hubbard in the 60's.

There is a '69 - '72 recording of Doc on a rousing rock number not found on YT, now just an old cassette from unknown source. There is Fender Guitar out front, and a rapid tempo change in the middle..the solo work is fairly similar to..
@ 3:20 here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggw14bPa_fk

Link


This recording is Freddie, not Doc.


I know Doc can’t play like that, but Freddie can’t play like Doc either. Great to have them both but I’m a Freddie guy🎃
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rothman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Below, just in terms of influencing him.

--- 2: 30

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Last edited by rothman on Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the direct influence is from allen vizzutti
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rothman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is interesting, yet Doc displayed a standout ability of creating more of the longer fluid phrases, with smooth weaving in and out of lower and middle registers at rapid clip, which were the hallmark of Freddie.

He doesn't get much credit for this.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He just couldn’t do it to the high degree Freddie did but then I’ll bet Freddie didn’t read much either?? I don’t know. Doc was more technically oriented although Hubbard was a clean machine. Doc could do about anything and be very good at it all maybe Freddie was too but I’ve only heard him do jazz and that shows.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't hear any analogous "cascade running lines". Could somebody provide timings that illustrate this? Thanks.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I really don't hear any analogous "cascade running lines". Could somebody provide timings that illustrate this? Thanks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFSkMykhEsI

When it happened I can't say, but sometime during the late sixties he showed he was adept at extending, connecting phrases, often in double time, to have a more fluid style.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, but how do the two compare? Also, are you sure that Steve Allen video doesn't predate the link to Doc?
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MrOlds
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“You and the Night and the Music” was from a 1968 recording. The Steve Allen clip was from the early 1980s.

I love both Doc and Freddie. But once you get past the amazing dexterity they couldn’t be more different.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I didn't know Steve Allen had a show that late.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fwiw, this was the particular track (cassette) I couldn't identify at the time. When the improv starts....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR6UtPvUL_8&list=OLAK5uy_mYeli_WGiss5uDMLmtOhunRbuFvcMK9BI

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peanuts56
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard any real similarities in their playing. I've always thought that Freddie was the best pure jazz trumpeter I've ever heard live. He could do anything on the horn in his prime. I heard him in 82 and early 86 before he injured his lip. He was incredible.
I was at a clinic that Rolf Smedvig gave and he talked about Freddie quite a bit. He really admired Freddie.
Doc is Doc. Amazing chops and technique. It's been well documented that Doc had his "jazz solos" written out for him. Arnie Lawrence told me that and Tony Scodwell confirmed in another post that was the case. That said you still have to be a hell of a player to play them.
Apples and Oranges I guess. I love the way they both play.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've listened a lot to all of the great trumpeters. When I was starting 9th grade, I hadn't really heard any jazz at all, and I walked into the bandroom to store my horn. The band director (who I had just met and turned out to be one of the most important mentors I ever had) was playing a record on the stereo. It was the just released 'MF Horn Two' by Maynard. I had never heard anything like that.
I went home and cajoled my mother into buying me a yard sale phonograph. Nobody in my house was that into music, much less jazz. I immediately went out and bought the Maynard album and a couple of weeks later, my mother presented me with an album she had ordered for me from her Columbia House Record club subscription. "I've never heard of him, but it said he was a jazz trumpet player so I thought you might like it," she said, handing me a brand spanking new copy of Freddie Hubbard's 'First Light' album.
My world was changing fast. My head exploded when I heard Freddie play. Since then, as I've said, I've listened to all the players, gone through phases, and appreciate them all - a lot. But if I had to pick a few desert island discs, there's definitely be a Maynard and a Freddie on the list. And if you haven't heard 'First Light', download, purchase, or steal it as soon as you can. You won't be sorry.

keith
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a touching story, Keith. Thanks for posting it.

Freddie's playing on "Ugetsu" (Blakey) did it for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMDCdSv11no
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khedger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
That's a touching story, Keith. Thanks for posting it.

Freddie's playing on "Ugetsu" (Blakey) did it for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMDCdSv11no


C'mon man.....Ugestsu ESPECIALLY Freddie's playing is CRAP (tongue firmly in cheek!!!!!)

Yeah, it never ends with Freddie, I mean, listen to Blues and the Abstract Truth by Oliver Nelson. Freddie's like 20 years old on that record!!!! And all of those Blakey albums with him and Wayne and Curtis fuller in the front line? Then his Atlantics and the CTI stuff! Those CTI albums are poo pooed by purists, but man, Red Clay and Get Your Soul Together and the aleady lauded First Light....whew some of the best stuff out there man. I only WISH that heard anything today that engaged me like that stuff does....

keith
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it makes you feel better, Freddie is 22 (almost 23) on Blues And The Abstract Truth. I think his first record is "Open Sesame", recorded in 1960. My favorite Freddie Hubbard recordings are Bill Evans "Interplay", Wayne Shorter "Speak No Evil", Herbie Hancock "Empyrean Isles", and Art Blakey "Mosaic". "Freddie Hubbard Live in Europe 1969" is another good one, as is V.S.O.P.

I think the craziest thing is that Freddie Hubbard and Booker Little played the section parts on Coltrane's "Africa/Brass". Too bad there aren't any trumpet solos on that album, but Coltrane's playing is unreal. One can only imagine the sessions at the Vanguard and Five Spot with Coltrane, Hubbard, and Little that never got onto tape.

This bootleg is mind-blowing. Some serious trumpet pyrotechnics!
https://youtu.be/b6CMX_VoRXE
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I'm not so sure about a Doc - Freddie connection in terms of influence. Maybe they admired each other, that would be nice.

Freddie's style was pretty well established in his early 20's, another early record to check out is "Ready For Freddie." The idea that Doc influenced him is pretty far-fetched. Freddie's early style especially was much more Miles Davis/Lee Morgan/Clifford Brown influenced.

That aside, I'd be hard pressed to find two more different jazz trumpeters. Not sure what you're really hearing to connect them, other than a fast tempo and a saturated, chorused recorded trumpet sound (popular in the CTI-era). Their articulation is completely different. Their concepts for improvising are virtually opposite.
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