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~100 year-old Besson Bb/A Trumpet


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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:08 am    Post subject: ~100 year-old Besson Bb/A Trumpet Reply with quote

This week's Jon Talks Trumpet video features an overview of by far the oldest instrument in my collection - my almost 100-year-old London Besson Bb/A Trumpet with a quick change rotor valve. This instrument was kept in unbelievable condition by its previous owners and has really aged well (considering it was made in the 1920s) - and it's really fun and gratifying to play as well.


Link


I am definitely wondering if it would be okay to get this silver plated (or even a first or third slide ring/trigger) - but I am torn because it is currently so beautifully preserved in its original configuration. What do you all think? Is it "blasphemous" to modify historical instruments for personal use?
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are only original once. You can't re-create genuine patina. Unless it needs mechanical work like the valves re-plated or leaking slides repaired, I would leave it cosmetically just as it is.
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
They are only original once. You can't re-create genuine patina. Unless it needs mechanical work like the valves re-plated or leaking slides repaired, I would leave it cosmetically just as it is.


I do tend to agree with you. The valves are in amazing condition still as they were re-done by Anderson Plating in the 90s (though I've heard Anderson doesn't offer this service anymore) so even that doesn't need any fixing at the moment. Thanks for your insight.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are all kinds of issues here.

Keeping the instrument authentic as built, or making it a player.

Is the instrument built in a high pitch instead of a= 440 maybe A = 446

Does the instrument have an extendable third slide or is it a preset third slide and you must lip the notes.

Will silver plate affect the tone.

Is there any laquer left on it and will removing this laquer bring the horn to life.

With the rebuilt valves does it slot strongly would this horn benefit from gap work.

Is the horn built with early tone concepts of trumpets rather than modern tone concepts, in other words does it play thinly with more projection and less core than modern horns.

All these issues affect your decision.

Some horns that have a rotor valve to change from A to Bb were a compromise and play better in only one pitch rather than both. Or they play poorly in both pitches.

This may render the horn a questionable instrument to spend any money on.

My personal view is a horn is made to be played and unless this instrument has historic value or rarety value, make it playable and useable.

Or you might as well slam it in a glass case and look at it occasionally.

I am proud to own and play instruments from 1917 1952 1953 1956 1974, the 1952 is my daily player, they are all magnificent instruments.

Yes I refurbed them apart from the 1917 which is of historic importance and the 1974 which did not need refurbing.

I destroyed their patina doing it and I was rewarded with instruments that are a joy to play and a joy to listen to.

If it plays well is on pitch has good articulation sweet valves and good playability then there is no question. A refurb will make you proud of it and it will play lyrically for decades.
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wilder
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you intend to use it, I would only give it what it needs. jw
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
There are all kinds of issues here.

Keeping the instrument authentic as built, or making it a player.

Is the instrument built in a high pitch instead of a= 440 maybe A = 446

Does the instrument have an extendable third slide or is it a preset third slide and you must lip the notes.

Will silver plate affect the tone.

Is there any laquer left on it and will removing this laquer bring the horn to life.

With the rebuilt valves does it slot strongly would this horn benefit from gap work.

Is the horn built with early tone concepts of trumpets rather than modern tone concepts, in other words does it play thinly with more projection and less core than modern horns.

All these issues affect your decision.

Some horns that have a rotor valve to change from A to Bb were a compromise and play better in only one pitch rather than both. Or they play poorly in both pitches.

This may render the horn a questionable instrument to spend any money on.

My personal view is a horn is made to be played and unless this instrument has historic value or rarety value, make it playable and useable.

Or you might as well slam it in a glass case and look at it occasionally.

I am proud to own and play instruments from 1917 1952 1953 1956 1974, the 1952 is my daily player, they are all magnificent instruments.

Yes I refurbed them apart from the 1917 which is of historic importance and the 1974 which did not need refurbing.

I destroyed their patina doing it and I was rewarded with instruments that are a joy to play and a joy to listen to.

If it plays well is on pitch has good articulation sweet valves and good playability then there is no question. A refurb will make you proud of it and it will play lyrically for decades.


"I destroyed their patina doing it and I was rewarded with instruments that are a joy to play and a joy to listen to."

Are we to assume that the original patina made the horn less enjoyable to play and less enjoyable to listen to? It has always been my experience that buffing and re-lacquering or buffing and re-plating rarely improves the way a horn plays or sounds, assuming of course that the horn was in at least good mechanical condition to begin with. As a matter of fact, it can negatively affect an instrument. Not to mention in the course of a cosmetic overhaul, the horn might be partially or completely disassembled in order to perform the necessary dent work prior to buffing.

On only one occasion am I aware that a cosmetic overhaul was beneficial to the horn's playability. A well known trombone player I knew, and I only repeat this story because he constantly repeated it at rehearsals and gigs, told of having his favorite trombone overhauled. The repairman called him and asked him while the horn was apart, should he make any changes or alterations to the horn. The player's response was that the horn played great before the overhaul and under no circumstances should the repairman make any changes. The repairman then replied: "In that case I better put the clothespin back in the tuning slide."

If someone finds that the enjoyment factor is increased by cosmetically overhauling an instrument to make it look like new again, I can understand that. It's not what I would do, but I get it. What I don't get is how cosmetically overhauling an instrument that is in otherwise good mechanical condition will improve the sound and playability. And in the case of a rare older instrument, one risks the possibility of doing more harm than good.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpets are tools to get a job done - when they cease getting the job done, they may become collectables. This is no different than having a side-crank drill from the 1890s. You would not mangle an antique drill with a keyless chuck - at the end of the day a $50 cordless will still be infinitely better at drilling a hole (or driving a screw, which a side-crank really sucks at).

So, if a horn is a "player", a tool, something that you depend on to put food on your table, then you do whatever makes it perform that function better.

If those days are behind it and it is a snapshot of a point in time that can impart knowledge and understanding of our transitions socio-culturally, technologically, and aesthetically from then to now, don't touch it.

In this case, we are talking about a horn that can be of greatest value by letting people see and hear what the norm of 100 years ago was. It is certainly a different sound, projection, and also look. This horn if preserved can help impart better understanding of the past, from which we then derive knowledge of why we do what we do today, to future generations.

There is no way you would use this for a major symphony gig (unless you want to get fired). So its value is historic, which would be diminished by alteration.
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, this is exactly why I brought this question to you all! Thank you so much for your time and insight. I have been reading and posting on trumpetherald for over 10 years, and this conversation reminds me why I keep coming back for more.

Though I can understand the argument for getting it refurbished/plated/altered, I think I am coming to the conclusion that I will leave it as is. It would be a shame for something that has lived a hundred years exactly as it is to be unnecessarily altered by an overzealous owner. It is currently a very accurate representation of what professional instruments were like in this era, and it's a bonus that it can still play beautifully. You're right that I probably would not bring this to work and actually perform on it in a serious manner, but maybe someday I will perform a recital piece on it for educational purposes.

If I want an A trumpet I could theoretically perform on at work, I might see if Osmun is willing to make a tuning slide in A for my Yamaha Bb and some shims to bring the valve slides to the correct length.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan wrote:
If I want an A trumpet I could theoretically perform on at work, I might see if Osmun is willing to make a tuning slide in A for my Yamaha Bb and some shims to bring the valve slides to the correct length.


Since you relied on Robb in your video, I should point out making a set of A slides is definitely in his wheelhouse and despite being the best in the business, he is remarkably reasonable on price for that particular task.
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Jon Kaplan wrote:
If I want an A trumpet I could theoretically perform on at work, I might see if Osmun is willing to make a tuning slide in A for my Yamaha Bb and some shims to bring the valve slides to the correct length.


Since you relied on Robb in your video, I should point out making a set of A slides is definitely in his wheelhouse and despite being the best in the business, he is remarkably reasonable on price for that particular task.


Thank you for that recommendation. I'm sure that Robb would do a wonderful job, I was just hesitant because on his home page he indicates he is largely retired, and continues cutting back on his work load after 40 (!!!) years in business. I will certainly reach out to him about this at some point and see if he is interested or able to take it on. I think I have actually seen an A tuning slide for a modern Bb that Osmun made that might have belonged to a member of the LA phil (pretty sure I saw it for sale here on TH many years ago). Too bad I wasn't in a position to buy it when I saw it!

Here is a link to a 2014 TH discussion where James Becker talks about his custom A tuning slides - https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Kaplan wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Jon Kaplan wrote:
If I want an A trumpet I could theoretically perform on at work, I might see if Osmun is willing to make a tuning slide in A for my Yamaha Bb and some shims to bring the valve slides to the correct length.


Since you relied on Robb in your video, I should point out making a set of A slides is definitely in his wheelhouse and despite being the best in the business, he is remarkably reasonable on price for that particular task.


Thank you for that recommendation. I'm sure that Robb would do a wonderful job, I was just hesitant because on his home page he indicates he is largely retired, and continues cutting back on his work load after 40 (!!!) years in business. I will certainly reach out to him about this at some point and see if he is interested or able to take it on. I think I have actually seen an A tuning slide for a modern Bb that Osmun made that might have belonged to a member of the LA phil (pretty sure I saw it for sale here on TH many years ago). Too bad I wasn't in a position to buy it when I saw it!

Here is a link to a 2014 TH discussion where James Becker talks about his custom A tuning slides - https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=132814&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Mr. Becker has earned an excellent reputation as well.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said that these old instruments were improved by removing their patina. I am not sure why you would imagine that I suggested the improvement was due to patina removal.

The instruments were tired and some were dented after over 60 years use.

They benefited greatly from a complete refurbishment as I would expect all instruments to so do when you they are completely overhauled and returned to as built factory condition by high quality restorers.

This was a complete disassembly and rebuild and not at all simple cosmetic work.

A desoldering dent removal resoldering polishing and laquering makes a horn as good as it can be and as good as it ever was.

Is it any surprise that these instruments played better after all this work than before.

It is a case by case choice but I wrote that post to counter the opinion already made that patina should be preserved.

If the instrument will be improved by a rebuild then do the rebuild dont keep a poor player poor just to keep the patina intact unless there is a good reason.

I do not accept the contention that a high quality repair tech might make a horn worse during a full and complete rebuild.

Maybe I was just lucky and my tech knew what he was doing.

Maybe I am wrong here do the best repair techs make horns worse?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I do not accept the contention that a high quality repair tech might make a horn worse during a full and complete rebuild.

Maybe I was just lucky and my tech knew what he was doing.

Maybe I am wrong here do the best repair techs make horns worse?


You are drastically over-simplifying.

A full and complete rebuild implies refinishing - that is buffing and the removal of material. It implies not just removal of critical intrusions into the raceway, but the smoothing of the metal where dents were, and often across all of the myriad of superficial little marks that appear over time, working the brass and hardening it while getting that mirror shine. It implies disassembling and reassembling the horn, abrading away the old solder from the inside (along with some brass) and then replacing it with new silver-based soft solder that has a different density than lead, affecting the way vibrations transmit through the body and interact with the vibration of the air column, as well as altering the damping effect of the mass of the body at certain points. It implies honing out the valve casings and weighing down the pistons with copper and nickel build-out shifting critical mass from the casing to the piston, and the inertia at certain frequencies along with.

You cannot restore a horn to new condition. You can only restore it to new appearance. In the process, the experience of playing it and hearing it are compromised and become a false representation of the past.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guilty as charged in over simplifying OldScool but in return you are over complicating.

I find your remarks suggest that I dont know much about instruments or the refurb process. Nothing could be further than the truth.

I see no build up of valves and no honing of valve blocks and believe me the valves are quite satisfactory and quite unaltered. They are still tight in the bore with good compression.

I should make the point here that many modern players reject valves as too loose that are factory spec for back in the day when looser valves were usual and they demand a valve job. This takes a horn out of original factory spec.

The work in these refurbs has been sensitively done with minimal polishing and the instruments sound totally gorgeous.

This is not the work of a gorilla with a blow torch but the work of master craftsmen who collectively with their 5 in house master craftsmen have over 200 years experience in the trade.

The very best craftsmen have the least impact on the horn and I do insist these horns are up to the standard of "as originally built" or very close to it.

I see a lot of musicians claiming that many horns are carrying manufacturing defects out of the factory such as solder lumps internally and poor assembly of parts.

And then they reverse this at a whim and claim that manufacturers assemble perfectly and techs cannot when it is suggested to them that techs can do high quality work. The truth lies in a middle ground

Take an instrument with manufacturing defects put it in the hands of a good tech and you will get a better instrument back.

Master craftsmen can correct manufacturing defects where they find them as they work.

The process you describe is a destructive one and I reject it. Yours is a one sided argument.

These horns following the work on them now create gorgeous tones and they are not in any way inferior to brand new out of the factory horns.

If this were not the case then I would suggest that no instrument should be touched by a master craftsman for fear of ruining the instrument with their over zealous botched work.

Is the training of craftsmen then worthless apart from doing a few repairs.

What is the point of a musical instrument, is it to look good or is it to sound fabulous.

Give me sounding fabulous every time.

You do seem to be suggesting that a full refurb damages instruments beyond repair. This is in my opinion totally misleading and grossly unfair.

Instruments can definitely be made better by a complete refurbishment in the hands of a master craftsman and this is due to the very minimal impact that the process enforces when it is done right. But it must be done right.

As to losing metal in polishing of course that is true but it is a question of degree and of effect.

I treat my instruments robustly and I whacked one after its refurb on a street pole and it rang very loudly. No dent was found. The metal is hardly thinned at all by the polishing. I could drive stakes with this instrument.

If the instrument were significantly thinned by polishing it should have become less robust. That has not happened.

I never use a case of any kind I do not need a case. (except maybe once, care of that pole)

The instrument is strong robust resilient sounds great has great core has good resonance has great intonation has good projection and wins fans whenever it is played as they all do.

How could it be any better than this.

All three refurbished instruments play and sound better than an unrefurbished totally original unmarked Fullerton Olds Special that also sounds fabulous and I play them side by side.

And by the way I have worked in my youth as a panel beater and sheet metal craftsman in a workshop. I do know about panel beating soldering brazing annealing forming dressing swaging finishing and polishing of sheet steel sheet copper and sheet brass. I have done it all.

I know what can be done what cannot be done to brass and its impact.

I totally reject your contention. Real craftsmen know what they are doing and I believe I do know what I am talking about.

I respect you immensely but you are in this case not as right as you usually are.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read my earlier post. Horns that are used as tools, that earn a living, can be maintained and even, as you say, improved, by major work. Horns that do not serve that purpose but have survived as intact representations of what did at another point in time and culture, can only be ruined as representations of that time and experience by alteration. I suppose I could have acknowledged a third category, which is toys. Those are horns that are neither suitable for performance, nor historically representative - I try not to think about those even if they are abundant.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman: Why use 50 words when you can say in 500? Let me summarize, if I may: "If it looks better, it will sound and play better." (OK, slight over simplification, but close). That seems to be your position. As OldSchoolEuph points out, you are over simplifying. There is a major difference between cosmetically overhauling a mechanically sound instrument and overhauling an instrument in need of total repair: valves, slides, dents, etc. As the OP has stated, the instrument in question is in great shape. He is inquiring whether or not to have it cosmetically overhauled. As described here, the process of a major cosmetic overhaul involves unsoldering, re-soldering, metal removal, etc. While in the best case scenario, this might not adversely affect the instrument's sound and/or playability a great deal, rarely if ever would it improve an instrument already in overall GOOD MECHANICAL CONDITION.

And as a former "panel beater" as you claim, there is a difference between pounding out a fender, and restoring a bell taper.

Sorry, guys, this was more than 50, but less than 500.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No

Looking better is not being better at all.

I stated this already

13 words
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The purpose of a refurbishment is not and never will be to make the instrument look prettier
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In use instruments become tired the metal becomes work hardened by internal forces over time. Internal vibrations lead to undesirable stress effects.

Small dents are accumulated and these dents can affect the tone.

There are many advantages to refurbishing an instrument that is over 50 years old many defects cannot be seen but they exist and a refurb removes these defects.

There is a downside but the benefits outweigh the problems
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would hope that instrument techs might be able to defend their trade and explain why they believe a refurbishment is worth the money.

If a tech cannot justify a refurbishment on anything other than cosmetic grounds then they should not be performing refurbishments.

Cosmetic improvement is a consequence of the refurbishment and not the reason for it.
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