Tongue On Top Lip

fox · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:14 am Post subject:

After 2 weeks on BE I am doing fine with both roll-in and roll out. I noticed that the roll out sounds more like the CD when I place the mouthpiece higher and use more of my upper lip in the mouthpiece. A consistent 3G on the roll-in is now starting to happen. I do find the roll-outs much easier, however.

Tonguing on the lips is showing me how open my chops have been for so long. Using my regular setting as I try to place the tongue to the lips, I can only feel the bottom of the top lip. It is pressed up against the front of the top teeth. Again, I can place the mouthpiece higher and bring the top lip down. It isn’t very easy to tongue that way. It is easier to tongue with the tip of the tongue on the lower lip (like TCE). It also seems to draw more of the upper lip toward the mouthpiece.

I know the book says that I should tongue on the top lip. Does that mean that the tip of the tongue should strike the top lip or can it be the forward top of the tongue?

I also know that this might be something that will become clearer as I go along. It is just very, very difficult to play the 2E's on tongue on lips #1. I can do it easier if I reset before the E, but that doesn’t seem right.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Doug

mcamilleri · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:52 am Post subject:

Definitely use the tip of the the tongue for tongue-on-lips, squarely on the top lip. If you want to also experiment with other tonguing possibilities, fine, but DO NOT skimp on good tongue-on-lips practice time. Tongue-on-lips is done as an exercise, and you do not have to adopt if for your normal articulation unless you want to. It achieves far more than you can possibly imagine.

The 2E's will get easier in time. Don't worry about them at this stage. Make sure you do the crescendo exercises, as this works in conjuction with tongue-on-lips.

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

ETK · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:14 am Post subject:

Is the tonguing on the top lip just an exercise? I thought the eventual goal is to tongue this way.

Also is tonguing on the lower lip good enough if it comes naturally or is there a reason why the tongue should strike the top lip instead?

mcamilleri · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:26 am Post subject:

BE DOES NOT require tongue-on-lips for normal playing. It is done as an exercise.

Some players (and likely the minority - Jeff??) may choose to tongue-on-lips in regular playing, as it is the best position for them. [EDIT: Jeffs reply states that all his upper level students tongue on the lips in regular playing]

As Jeff says in his book (my paraphrase, book at home again), the important thing is not DO you tongue on lips but CAN you tongue on lips.

Tonguing on the lower lip is not good enough. You MUST tongue on the top lip for the exercise.

Part of the reason for tonguing on the top lip is that it forces the top lip to come down, which achieves a multitude of good things, like opening the jaw, giving feedback on lip position, getting more lip compression, freeing the top lip from the crush of pressure on the top teeth, teaching independence of the tongue and jaw and chin (a real flat chin buster) etc etc etc.

If another style of tonguing comes naturally and works better for you for normal play, then use that but DO NOT skip or skimp or substitute tongue-on-lips practice.

In my opinion, tongue-on-lips is one of the MOST IMPORTANT parts of BE (realising that they are ALL important, of course). I believe that many people are placing undue emphasis on the roll-out and roll-in (especially the roll-in), and perhaps not putting enough time into the other parts of BE. BE is an integrated system and ALL parts of it must be practiced and developed to achieve a balanced embouchure. Naturally, some people will need more work on particular parts.

Michael

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-03-08 14:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-03-08 14:39 ]

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-03-11 13:53 ]

fox · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject:

Does that mean I should spend a little more time on the weaknesses? I can do roll-in #1 and roll-out #1 with no problem. Should I advance to the other roll-ins and roll-outs (#2) and will that help me with tongue-on-lips #1 Or should I stick with the lesson plan and not advance until I get tongue-on-lips #1 done properly up to G?

Doug

mcamilleri · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:25 pm Post subject:

Doug, you will have to decide for yourself. Make sure your embouchure matches the descriptions in the book, and that you sound like the CD before moving on. I wouldn't hold back on roll-out #2 or roll-in #2 because the tonguing is not quite there yet, but sooner or later you will have to master the tonguing.

Spending a bit more time on your weaknesses is worthwhile, spending loads more time on them is not. Often, a weakness in one area can only be solved by improving in another area.

Michael

_________________
_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_
Olds Special Trumpet - 1976
One Horn to Rule Them All!

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-03-08 18:27 ]

pmj · Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:52 pm Post subject:

Doug, thanks for this post. I have been on BE for about 4 weeks and am experiencing a similar struggle with tonguing on the the top lip. I too have been playing with an open lip configuration and feel the top lip is even with or above the teeth from C2/D2 and up.

Michael thanks for your continued good advice and feedback on this issue; this has clarified the situation considerably for me.

_________________

Pat

[ This Message was edited by: pmj on 2004-03-08 21:53 ]

fox · Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:05 am Post subject:

Michael, this all makes great sense. Thanks for keeping me on track.

Doug

trumpetteacher1 · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:20 am Post subject:

Michael,

Terrific insight, as always!

Regarding the question of how many BE players use tongue-on-lips regularly in their playing: All of my upper level students do. In general, the better the player, the more they use it.

The main reason that I phrased it the way I did in the book (not DO you tongue on lips but CAN you tongue on lips), is that it is a political issue with band directors. Tonguing on the lips violates deeply held educational beliefs. The idea was to defuse the issue by explaining it as a means to an end. But I could write a whole chapter on the benefits of tonguing on the lips in all types of playing, and where the bias against it comes from.

Maybe in the next book...

Jeff

mcamilleri · Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:34 am Post subject:

Thanks Jeff.

I recently decided that tongue-on-lips, or some variation, was going to be my normal articulation, and Jeff, you have validated that decision. Thanks. I will redouble my efforts.

Michael

BTW, you are deeply subversive!

_________________
_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_
Olds Special Trumpet - 1976
One Horn to Rule Them All!

[ This Message was edited by: mcamilleri on 2004-03-11 13:51 ]