Rebuilt valves sticking

dewey · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:07 am Post subject: Rebuilt valves sticking

Hello all, I have a 1953 Chicago Benge that I had overhauled by one of the well known trumpet restorers. This was done a few years ago, and when I got it back the valves were great. They had been replated at Andersons. I ran into problems on my first gig. The valves started to get sluggish as though there was no oil on them after 5 or 10 minutes of playing. I spoke to the person who restored it and he was surprised, suggested I get them lapped - that maybe the tolerances were too tight. I have had that done and three good repairmen have looked at the valves and can't find anything wrong. I am guessing condensation or heating causes them to start to rub differently. It has been quite a few years and many repair techs and it is not much better. Anyone have any suggestion on what might be going on?
Thanks in advance
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lipshurt · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:13 am Post subject:

Sounds like your Benge has been slightly pressured into a different alignment of tubes, or in other words there has been tension introduced after the valve rebuild. That could be caused by your case. Most cases put pressure on the tubes and bell. Especially bad is the standard Bach double case. Those tend to bend the bell to the right.

Lapping won’t fix it if the source pressure is still there
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blownchops · Regular Member Joined: 15 Apr 2020 Posts: 84

LittleRusty · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:42 am Post subject:

This is kind of obvious but have you tried different valve oils? Specifically a thinner oil.

Two thoughts on the oil route. One, your body chemistry might be interacting so a different brand might help. Two, the tolerances might be tighter which is where a thinner oil will help.

dewey · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:57 am Post subject:

I have tried other weights of oil. That hasn't solved it. It's odd because they play great at first and anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes in the start sticking. If I oil again it fixes for a few minutes.
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jondrowjf@gmail.com · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jul 2016 Posts: 669

Dewey
When is the last time you had the trumpet professional cleaned? Chemical cleaning or ultrasonic cleaning? Many times I get a new purchased horn cleaned. Once a year on my other ones.
Just a thought.
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LittleRusty · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:29 am Post subject:

Cleaning the connecting tubes between the casings is important. Stuff in there can migrate when playing.

Dennis78 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:37 pm Post subject:

Might be oiling to heavily
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a few different ones

dewey · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:16 pm Post subject:

I have all my horns ultrasonically cleaned regularly. The techs usually say the valves are fine. They can't (or don't) replicate the problem. I think it might be heat or condensation. I am going to try warming the casing without breathing into it and see what happens. It's too bad. It a great sounding horn.
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JayKosta · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt valves sticking

Bflatman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720

We are used to modern trumpet manufacturing techniques that build very tight valves.

Vintage horns often were built with looser valves than is usual today and that a replating delivers, and they operated just fine.

There is nothing wrong with tighter valves of course many players prefer them but tight valves can become incredibly valve oil sensitive.

Tight valves require thin oil to run well and thin oil does not have much ability to cling to the surface it is applied to. The thin oil then falls down rapidly to the bottom cap and drains away leaving the valve dry.

I believe this may be what we are seeing here.

Different oils have different components in the mix, I would try various thin oils such as for example yamaha oil, this is specifically designed for very tight clearances and should have satisfactory cling.

The oils ability to cling is affected by the surface structure of the valve and its smoothness.

Some cheaper thin oils are thin because they are a mixture of light fractions and heavy fractions. the light fractions evaporate swiftly leaving the much thicker heavy fractions behind and these residues can act like a gum sticking the valve up.

Try several thin oils until you find one that clings well and does not leave unpleasant sticky residues behind.

Changing the oil can cause the oils to interfere with each other and cause stickiness.

So, clean the instrument deeply whenever you change the oil to an alternative oil. Use plenty of oil until you find one that works well and the valves settle down.
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dewey · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject:

What great advice everyone. Thanks.
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Adams A4; Schilke B5Lb; Van Cleave; Chicago Benge 33XX; LA Benge 5x & 2x; Mt Vernon 37; Mt Vernon Mercedes; Bach 72*/25-0; King Super 20; Conn 28a; Conn 22b; Conn 80a; ConnConqueror; Olds L12 Flugel; Adams F2 Flugel; Couesnon Flugel

Beyond16 · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:26 pm Post subject:

khedger · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:33 pm Post subject:

James Becker · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:05 am Post subject:

Assuming the valve rebuild is a quality job there’s a good chance they were fit hypertight. If that’s the case a judicious hand lapping with a fine compound like 1100 grit Garnet paste will provide the right amount clearance without compromising the seal. “Relaxing the fit” should never be done aggressively, when lightly but politely will do.

And for those instruments with close tolerances I really like Dennis Wick oil with PTFE (Teflon particles) works wonders. Thank you Will Spencer for your brilliant idea!

I hope this is helpful.
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Divitt Trumpets · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:27 am Post subject:

I'll second the Dennis Wick oil. I love it. It definitely needs to be more popular than it is.
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yourbrass · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:13 am Post subject:

You probably already know this but it bears saying:
Before changing brands of oil, clean the horn thoroughly. Mixing oils can create weird problems.
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James Becker · Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:07 am Post subject:

Believe it or not, Dennis Wick mixes well with most valve oils. That being said many synthetic oils may not mix and require complete removal of the previous oil.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

I’m having really good luck with Resiliance oils on a valve job Jim just did. I’ve a background in building some very hi hp engines (5+ hp per cI) and one large problem in hi wear areas in in reactions between dis-similar metals, sometime corrosive. The formulations in this are designed to reduce corrosion and reactions between brass, nickel, and stainless. Besides they are really slick and I haven’t had a slow or sticking valve yet. Try it out.
Rod

Ronnman · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:32 am Post subject:

Regarding Denis Wick PTFE valve oil, I have an old bottle, probably 7 years old, and tried in all my trumpets. My experience has been that the valves did not stick, but noticed the valve action slowed. Note, you should shake the bottle up to distribute the Teflon particles before application. The oil is clear and when you shake it up becomes opaque or clouded.

After trying many valve oils (like so many do), I have settled on using a different valve oil for each trumpet. I attribute this to the different valve wear/clearance and piston materials of these horns. The three oils I am using are Hetman’s #3, Doc’s Juice and BERPs #3 Bio Oils.

I am not knocking the Denis Wick oil, just stating my experience.
Ron
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