Bach Mouthpiece diameters

[loweredsixth]

Man, here's yet another example of the illogical ordering of Bach diameters. This is a Bach 2 (green) and a Bach 8-1/2C (red). If the Kanstul mouthpiece comparator can be trusted, then one of these definitely does not match the published diameter!



BTW, I've been playing on the 8-1/2C for a few days, and it's a nice mouthpiece. It's a VERY deep "C" cup (another issue with Bach mouthpieces) with a comfortable rim contour, but with a relatively sharp bite. It plays very dark for me. I use it on cornet which is great, but I think it would be too dark for trumpet.
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The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis

[loweredsixth]

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The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis

[JLandressBrassCustServ.]

Hey loweredsixth,

You would be correct! Our good friend, Jim New, at Kanstul spent a lot of time and energy making the mouthpiece comparator as accurate as possible!

What a lot of people don't know is that all of the current Bach mouthpieces started as a custom series that was meant for a specific player at a specific time... later is was morphed into a series with a sequential numbering system. unfortunately, some sizes just didn't make sense at the time it was created, or were added after the fact

Brands like Schilke, Warburton, and Reeves really set the standard for a true metric numbering system in which a size, number, and lettering system accurately reflects the size that we (us trumpet players) can understand.

I hope this helps, please let me know if you have any questions.
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J. Landress Brass, LLC.
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www.jlandressbrass.com

[adagiotrumpet]

I've played "modern" Bach 1C's for over 40 years. I have a New York 10C and a New York 10 1/2C that feel quite close to each other but don't feel that much smaller in diameter than any of my 1C's.. I also have a Mt. Vernon 10 1/2C that I can barely fit into. Go figure.

[amboguzzi]

[delano]

Always I wondered how people think to use the Kanstul comperator.
The picture above shows a mouthpiece with a diameter of something like 95 mm. The real diameter is about 16,5 mm so the mp is magnified by a factor 5,75. The lines of the drawing are about 1 mm (a little more) thick.
The real difference in diameter between a 8.5 and a 2 is according to the Bach mouthpiece manual 16.50 minus 16.10 = 0.4 mm. That means that on both sides of the cup you are presumed to see a difference of 0.2 mm on lines that are 1 mm thick. IMO you can use the Kanstul comperator only for the shape of the mouthpieces, forget the diameter.

[loweredsixth]

[delano]

Even more prove that you can’t use it to compare the diameters of mouthpieces with it.
With a magnifiying factor of 5 the difference should be 5x0.05 = 0.25 mm. That means a difference on both sides of 0.125, just over one tenth of a mm (I doubt that one could be able to see this kind of small differences in the comparator). I did the proof with the 8 1/2 and the 9 and the difference in the K. comparator is over 1 mm on both sides. That should mean a real difference of 2:5 = 0.4. So the difference between an 8 1/2 and a 9 should be according to the comparator 0.4 mm instead of 0.05. But that's the difference between an 8 1/2 and a 2!
This is calculated a little bit rough but even with very precise calculating the comparators outcome will be quite wrong.
But if you go back to your OP: put on the 8 1/2 on the comparator, call it 2, then overlay the 9 over the 8 1/2, call that the 8 1/2 and you will have a good graphic of your original question.

[Irving]

I've always found Bach mpcs. to be true relative to their marked sizes. If you take a 6C and a 7C, the 7C is in fact a little smaller than the 6C. And so it goes through their line. Are there differences between the same model numbers? Yup, for sure. Every size has it's own style of rim, and within each size, the rim usually changes with the cup depth. If you find a model you like then you are set.

As far as the comparison tool goes, my chops are a better tool, and can tell right away which mouthpiece is smaller, and which one is larger.

[delano]

[Irving]

I know what the Bach catalogue says, but according to my chops which have the last say far as I am concerned personally, the 7C is a bit smaller. The point is that you can't depend on comparitors or charts. Maybe if you compared the 7C with. 6C , you might think that they are the same whereas I don't. It isn't a question of who is right or wrong. It is our own individual perception that counts.
.
In one sense Bach's system of measurement makes sense. As I said I believe you can tell that the 1 is the biggest, going all the way to the 20C which is the smallest. Moving up the numbers, they get smaller incrementally. Same with the cups, from A to F. What doesn't make sense is that each cup has a different design, but still fits into the same system within each mouthpiece family. Compare the 2 C cup with a 3C. They are totally different. But, compare the 2C with the 2, and the 2 is in fact deeper. The system makes sense, yet it doesn't. Rims have different shapes on every single model. At the end of the day you need to try the mouthpiece and not rely on charts, somebody else's opinion or comparators.

[delano]

[Irving]

I agree with you. It is better to compare models by each maker by what they say about it. I think the comparator is basically useless. If you want to know how a mouthpiece that interests you compares with the one that you are playing then speak to the mouthpiece maker. Or better yet try the mouthpiece out if you know somebody that has one.

[lipshurt]

lips are only going to tell you what FEELS bigger or smaller, and that is important of course and much of the time your lips will be right.

But the actual diameter is a measurable thing. To measure a diameter, you need to pick a location to measure. Most of the time a certain distance "down from the high point of the rim" serves as a reasonable place to measure. Something like .052 gives a location just under the inner bite radius. That of course means that the indicated diameter depends on the shape of the rim. If the rim is really flat, that means the high point is closer to the inner bite radius, and the .052 distance down from the high point is now further down from the inner bite radius. The opposite if the rim contour is rounded with more a a hump in the middle area of the rim. Your .052 distance from the rim is now measure different distances down from the inner bite radius. We use "distance down for the high point" because that is a solid findable place to reference.

The actual bite radius very much dictates the way you feel the size of the diameter. That is kind of obvious as to what that works that way.

What is less obvious is that with the same rim coutour, same inner bite radius, and same measurement .052 down from the identical high point, a piece with a lower "alpha angle" or in other words a cup which drops more "straight down" below the inner bite radius will feel bigger in diameter that a cup with even a very slight difference just below the inner bite radius. ANd this perception depends on how much lip intrusion a player has. In these instances your lips are incorrectly telling you which piece is bigger in diameter. Your lips matter of course, but they are not always right.

Where the high point of the rim is also affects the perception of diameter, some players more than others. FOr some people the high point location is the main thing that matters.

All of this stuff is what keeps mouthpiece people like myself working with players to get things just right with their mouthpieces. adjusting rim high point, alpha angle, inner bite, and actual diameter are the most common mouthpiece alterations by far.
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[cgaiii]

My experience with the Kanstul Comparator was very helpful. I allowed me to match my Mt. Vernon/Elkhart transition year 5C (using Mt. Vernon specs) to its closest modern equivalent (1.5 C). My chops were happy with this. This allowed me to use modern mouthpieces to experiment with other parameters (more open throats, backbores, etc.). The match was not 100% but it worked.
Some of this may have been luck because from what I understand there was some variability even in the same Bach mouthpiece depending where yours might have been made in the life of the tooling. Anyway the comparator is a useful tool.
If you go to Jim New'sb website, you will find another version of the comparator that he calls MPV or mouthpiece profile viewer. It has his mouthpieces and others.
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[loweredsixth]

[Irving]

[quote="lipshurt"]lips are only going to tell you what FEELS bigger or smaller, and that is important of course and much of the time your lips will be right.

[/quote

Exactly. All I need to do is compare mouthpieces to what I am using. Of course that is only a starting point, but if it is noticeably too big or small, then I know it won't be useful to me.

[delano]

[quote="cgaiii"
If you go to Jim New'sb website, you will find another version of the comparator that he calls MPV or mouthpiece profile viewer. It has his mouthpieces and others.[/quote]

I think that's a better name: Mouthpiece Profile Viewer. By this you compare the form of a mouthpiece.