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BobD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1251 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:09 pm Post subject: Middle D is flat |
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I play a an ACB/Adams collaborative horn. It's a great horn and has good intonation but my middle D is flat. It gets better as I warm up but I still have to lip it up. The weird thing is, if I play middle D with a low D fingering it's spot on. That seems backwards to me. I'm lengthening the trumpet and it's pulling the note up. Anyone know why that might be? _________________ Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C |
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patdublc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1059 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not one of techno-jocks around here who will explain the physics in great detail. But, 4th line D played with first valve is a flat partial on all trumpets and needs to be adjusted (lipped up). If a horn were optimized to make that note in tune, then many others first valve notes would be unbearably sharp. Top line F leans sharp so with just these two notes, a compromise has to be made to favor one or let each be a little out of tune.
Many people always play D with first and third valve, especially on C trumpet. It's not a weird thing to do at all.
Regarding "lengthening the trumpet" - well yes, of course you are lengthening the trumpet by add the first and third valve slides, but you're also playing D on a different partial so there is no direct correlation
Trumpet intonation is just one huge compromise of how long to make each slide and tube so that each partial is as close to in tune as possible. _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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The D in the staff played with 1st valve is derived from lowering the pitch of the no-valve E just above it.
The 1-3 for that D is derived from the no-valve G above it.
The pitch 'tendency' of the no-valve E will affect all of the lower notes that are played with valve combinations that are based on the E's harmonic.
You might notice that the no-valve E is also a little flat based on an electronic tuner - but it probably sounds just fine - as would the Cmaj no-valve chord C-E-G-(hi)C .
If you want to delve into details about tuning and harmonics, a good start is learning about 'just temperament' and 'equal temperament'. Electronic tuners use 'equal', and most trumpets are closer to 'just'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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These pitch tendencies vary depending upon the wrap and width of the instrument's design. _________________ Brad Goode
www.bradgoode.com |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 993 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here are four things that solved this issue for me on separate occasions.
Mouthpiece gap. Usually too much gap causes this issue.
Valve alignment.
Throat; going larger, along with the backbore, helps.
Short shank design, like Monette mouthpieces. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7771 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Middle D is flat |
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BobD wrote: | I play a an ACB/Adams collaborative horn. It's a great horn and has good intonation but my middle D is flat. |
This is news? If you're referring to the D on the 4th line, treble clef, welcome to the club. You may come to realize that your "low D, C#/Db" are sharp, your 12 combinations also are a bit on the high side, and a variety of other issues that are common to valved instruments. As a HS kid I remember how flat a pal's Getzen Eterna tpt was on 4th line D. |
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wilder Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 341 Location: NYC
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: |
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practice. jw |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1019 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | The D in the staff played with 1st valve is derived from lowering the pitch of the no-valve E just above it.
The 1-3 for that D is derived from the no-valve G above it.
The pitch 'tendency' of the no-valve E will affect all of the lower notes that are played with valve combinations that are based on the E's harmonic.
You might notice that the no-valve E is also a little flat based on an electronic tuner - but it probably sounds just fine - as would the Cmaj no-valve chord C-E-G-(hi)C .
If you want to delve into details about tuning and harmonics, a good start is learning about 'just temperament' and 'equal temperament'. Electronic tuners use 'equal', and most trumpets are closer to 'just'. |
Jay, did you mean that we trumpeters are close to "just" being in tune?
All kidding aside, there is great information in this thread. However, playing in tune with a group is a skill that can't be learned practicing alone with a tuner. Unfortunately, we're in a situation now where it'll likely be some time before we are back to normal. But keep the faith!
Ben |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2485 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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wilder wrote: | practice. jw |
this!!
5th partial is flat on the horn.
Make some pitch tendency charts to learn your own horn better (they are all slightly different) and with respect, work on your ear. It's the player's job to play in tune, not the horn.
I had this same "issue" and in a lesson mentioned it to a pro player - he lifted the horn and played it. "plays in tune for me" handed it back. Invaluable lesson. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2537 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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The biggest statement I can make regarding tuning is one that is absolute.
KNOW THY INSTRUMENT!
How does one get to know the instrument? Practice. Using a tuner at this step is good because it can help to get you, the instrument owner, to understand the characteristics of your instrument. This can be developed with simple exercises such as Arban, Getchell, etc. These may be technically simple, but they are often scales or chords and can immediately show the shortcoming and strengths of the intonation of your horn.
Once you get to the point where you know the tendencies of your instrument, you then can relate to others. Too often, players lose in this step because they know their personal playing, but not others. Or they are playing with a group for the first time, which can be a challenge. The best goal is to play as in tune as possible, and then work to be the solid reference (as a principal), or match the principal.
This is just the start. I'll be honest in that, once I know a new horn, I work for resonance in my sound, and I am always close on tuning. Something about brass instruments and resonance when considered from a physics perspective, but beyond the coverage here or now.
I hope this helps a little,
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2362 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:39 am Post subject: |
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KNOW THY INSTRUMENT (I obviously liked that comment from Al)
Start with having a concept of science.
All brass instruments have these tendancies, some respond better than others but you have to learn or teach your chops to overcome them.
Practice, Practice, Practice.
https://www.utc.edu/faculty/erika-schafer/musiceducatorresources/tuning.php _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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BobD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1251 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: |
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We got of course a little bit. I realize there are notes on all horns that tend to go sharp or flat. Middle D (forth line) on a tenor sax does the same thing. My question was more of how could fingering a low D, which adds to the length of the pipe, pull the note up into tune? _________________ Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2485 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:19 am Post subject: |
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BobD wrote: | We got of course a little bit. I realize there are notes on all horns that tend to go sharp or flat. Middle D (forth line) on a tenor sax does the same thing. My question was more of how could fingering a low D, which adds to the length of the pipe, pull the note up into tune? |
Of course working commercial players ought to know the tendencies of the saxes too, helps you to play function gigs. 4th line D being sharp on sax.
4th line D 1&3 is sharp on Bb and tonally incorrect. On C D and picc I find this tonality less dissimilar to the regular fingering and as such is perfectly fine. If you can make 1&3 work on D, sound wise, go for it. I have had to do this to play with some function band sax players. Similarly I somtimes play G as 1st & 2nd to make it work with some players.
Cheers! _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 726 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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The OP also notes that the horn is flatter when cold. This is true of all instruments, since the speed of sound is lower at lower temps, and increases (with an increase in "frequency" as the instrument warms up. At the colder temp, he would have to "lip up> even further. As the horn warms, it gets a bit closer to the standard pitch.
I play Eb cornet in a brass band that plays Sunday concerts in the Texas summer, so I cross finger the C#, D, Eb, and E fifth harmonics to use the sixth harmonic on the Eb. Also, the partials of the Eb cornet or trumpet in the upper staff wind up playing aganst the opposite partials of the Bb, which is why Eb (and F) brass instruments have such a bad reputation for intonation! The summer heat increases the problems, because we often play in temperatures above 100 degrees F, so the band starts about 25 cents sharp (we gave up trying to pull enough to get the horns in tune, and opted to tune to a sharper standard) so that we could all more or less stay in tune.
That is why brass instruments need tuning slides! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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loweredsixth Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 1847 Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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BobD wrote: | We got of course a little bit. I realize there are notes on all horns that tend to go sharp or flat. Middle D (forth line) on a tenor sax does the same thing. My question was more of how could fingering a low D, which adds to the length of the pipe, pull the note up into tune? |
Pushing down 1-3 places the trumpet on that overtone series. That makes that D the fifth overtone (which is sharp). That’s why that pitch fingered 1-3 is sharper than if you fingered it 1.
Think of your trumpet as being 7 different bugles. Changing that fingering is changing bugles. When you go from playing that D 1 you are playing the 4th overtone on your Bb (concert Ab) bugle. That overtone is always flat.
When you play it 1-3 you are playing the 5th overtone on your G (concert F) bugle. That overtone is always sharp. _________________ The name I go by in the real world is Joe Lewis |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 726 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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BobD (original poster),
If you are still having issues with using more tubing to raise the pitch, I offer the following analysis:
When you play D below the staff, you use the first and third valve to lower the open G down a 4th.
When you play D on the third line up on the staff, you are lowering the open E on the 4th space down 1 full step with your first valve. If you wish to play the D with an alternate fingering, using the first and third valve lowers the open G above the staff a fourth down, just like the low D lowers the open G on the second line in the lower range. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Bob, since we are in nearby Acton, Massachusetts I would urge you to make an appointment to have me look over your trumpet. I’ve had some success mitigating pitch problems on C trumpets, not just Bach. Book online or phone (978) 823-0580 to schedule your appointment. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Uberopa Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 939 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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I have a Benge 8Z cornet that had a very uneven scale. It was nearly unplayable beyond a Bb above the staff. I finally sent it to George Rawlin. He tweaked the horn and it plays quite well now. Worth the money spent. |
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BobD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1251 Location: Boston MA
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:29 am Post subject: |
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James,
I was thinking about bringing it to Osmun but I might keep at it for a while. I'm just getting back into playing trumpet, after years of sax, and I'm finding it may be more me than the horn. That D is the only challenge and as I, and the horn, warm up I find the D comes into tune but I still have to lip it up a little. Plus this is not my forever horn. I will probably end up on a Xeno or Shew at some point. _________________ Adams/ACB collaborative
Yamaha Shew Jazz and Bach 7C |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:49 am Post subject: |
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BobD wrote: | ... That D is the only challenge and as I, and the horn, warm up I find the D comes into tune but I still have to lip it up a little. ... |
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How does the D sound when you play the 1st valve series
F-Bb-D ?
And when doing that series, do you consciously try to adjust the pitches from what you envision as being 'correct'? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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