Endurance-Problem

[Hubi1]

Hi all,
i am on BE since about 7 month and i think it works all fine untill two weeks before. Better sound, upper register easier to play and more endurance. But since two weeks i had big problems with my endurance. Last Saturday for example i played a short gig with my marching band and after the first 10 minutes my emouchure broke down. I can´t hit F or G above the staff. Only the hot air came out of my trumpet. I thougt that i maybe need a break and stopped practice for two days. But nothing changed. Can somebody please help me? This can´t be normal. Thank you very much in advance

[trumpetteacher1]

Need more information.

1. What do you mean by "broke down?" (contrast before and after)

2. By F and G above the staff, are you talking about notes above high C?

3. Where does your tongue touch while tonguing?

3. What is your daily BE practice routine? Has it recently changed in quality or quantity?

And that's just for starters. Yes, problems can often be resolved over the internet. But sometimes you have to give a lot of details!

Jeff

[Hubi1]

Hi Jeff,
thx for that fast reply. To your questions

1. two weeks ago i had a full and fat sound in the register from low C to B below high C. And that for the whole gig.
Now, after 10-15 Minutes normal playing i can`t hit F or G above normal C. Only if i make a short break!
2. No, below high C
3. Tongue is touching upper lip while tonguing and a little bit the lower one
4. I try to practice 3 or 4 times a week for about one hour at home. I play the Roll-Inn 1, 2 and sometimes 3.
Roll-Out 1-4, Lip-Slurs, Tonguing exercises and crescendo-decrescendo exercises. Than on friday two hours together
with the Band normal Sheet-Music
Lip Clamp normally three times a day for 1,5 minute and squeezing a few times per day.

I hope these informations are helpfully.
Kind regards

[trumpetteacher1]

Still more questions.

You say that you lose the buzz (only air comes out) on F and G top-of-staff after 10 or 15 minutes.

1. What happens to notes lower than F and G? In other words, is that where the sound cuts out?

2. If you play the tonguing exercise at that point, can you maintain contact with the top lip all the way up to G?

3. Do you play with a rolled-in setup or a "regular" setup.

There are several possibilities here, but I can only speculate on a few. You may simply be stiff from doing too much lip clamp. Three times per day is a bit much. Or, you may be reaching the tail end of functionality with your current lip position, and a more rolled in setup may be needed. It's even possible that your mouthpiece position or horn angle may need adjusting up or down.

When you have this experience, are you experimenting (within the BE parameters, of course) to find a way to restore the buzz? In what ways are you experimenting?

Jeff

[Hubi1]

Hi again Jeff,
i think you can be right with your speculation about the lip position. I do not use the roll-in position in this range. It is the regular setup. I didn´t have experimented at the moment, because first i want to ask, if somebody have experience with this problem. What do you think? Should i do that? Maybe change mouthpiece-position.
You asked me if the F or G is the point where i lose my buzz and that is right. With C, D and E i have no problems.
While tonguing up to G the contact between tongue and top lip is correct i think. But i will observe this more exactly in my next practice session.
I am really glad to get support from you and the whole forum members.
Thanks a lot
Hubi

[trumpetteacher1]

Well, here's the deal.

You say that you used to be able to play up to a high B with your regular embouchure for long periods of time.

Now after 10 minutes, it cuts out at the top of the staff, forcing you to rest.

I personally have no experience with this exact problem. But its pretty logical to think that something has changed, or is changing in your embouchure. Since I am unfamiliar with your setup - both before and after - I am reading your posts in the hopes of finding a clue regarding what changed.

However, if you have been applying the BE principles to your playing for 7 months, my feeling is that you currently have enough tools to find out for yourself how to get by this speed bump.

A "B" above the staff is not a particularly high note. It could be that you would do better with a rolled in setup. How are your roll-in exercises going, especially #3? Can you tongue on the lips when rolled in?

BTW - Figuring out why something has changed in another person's playing, even in a live lesson, is sometimes just a matter of asking enough obvious-sounding questions. Students will sometimes pick up the wrong mouthpiece for days on end, and wonder why they sound differently. I even had a student a few weeks ago sound fairly weak in a lesson, even though he insisted that he had practiced regularly. It wasn't until the end of the (frustrating) lesson that he said, "oh, yeah, I got braces yesterday!" I had failed to notice them.

Jeff

[mcamilleri]

Whilst being unable to tell you what is going on, I can relate to similar experiences myself. A while ago, in warm up I could do anything. G above high C for range, great power etc. Give it 10 minutes, and things start to fall apart - on goes the pressure and thats it. Then struggling for an A on the staff.

Basically, I was losing the inward/rolled in focus, and part of what was triggering that was trying to sound a particular way. This was most noticable when playing classical music, where I think the effort or worry of trying to sound 'right' dragged up a whole pile of old habits that overtook the BE habits. In an 'anti-Chicago School' way, I suggest that you simply shouldn't care how you sound in performance. If you are playing lyrical classical music, and think your tone sounds like Maynard Ferguson playing Rocky, don't worry about it - just keep playing. If you are THAT bad the band leader will pull you up. Short of that, keep playing.

In time you WILL find out what is going on - I did and solved the problem. Don't make it into a big issue.

Michael

[Bruce Lee]

Hubi,

Jeff, I hope you don't mind if I interject here. I have a trombone student that has made GREAT strides using BE. However, during a recent lesson, while he was playing an etude that he was working on, he was reminded of a tune that he had learned prior to becoming one of my students. When he started playing that piece, he immediately reverted back to his old embouchure. Of course, I called him on it, and asked him to think about BE while playing... problem solved.

So, Hubi, I would say that there's a very good possibility that the same may have been the case with you. Could it be that marching band brought back the old embouchure? Making sure that the feet are doing the right thing, and making sure that you are where you belong in a drill pattern, could have had a negative effect on the positive changes that you've experienced with BE.

As Jeff already stated, problems aren't always that easy to fix over the internet, or via e-mail, so great detail is needed. Thanks for sharing! I hope that we can all help you!

Best always,
Bruce

[HJ]

Hi,

Difficult to say what to do, indeed. But it sounds like a problem that will solve itself. Don't overdo!!! If this means that you have to rest (when practicing) after every note, do it!!! Remember to always practice on an embouchure as fresh as possible. If you practice on worn-out chops this is the feeling you are actually incorporating. So, your chops will feel worn-out after a minute, because that is what you practiced. This is just an overall thing, goes for everybody. I say it because this insight has taken me years. I think it mainly has to do with patience, not only in the long run, but also on a daily basis. Pace yourself. Especially on the lesser days. It may well happen that this is the upbeat of a breakthrough, IF YOU LET IT HAPPEN !!! Don't panic, don't force yourself, it sounds like something that will go away. Keep doing the exercises, maybe not as long, or go back a few steps and go from there. I did it a few times when I felt I was overdoing it (muscle ache, loss of control, too much mpc pressure). My lesser days ( although not so dramatically bad as in the past) are almost always a promise for a small breakthrough. Maybe this gives you some confidence.

Bruce and Michael have an interesting angle, and I believe we discussed this on the Callet forum. There is certainly a link between the music that you played on lesser days (or struggling pre-BE days) and your embouchure even if this is much better through BE training.
I experience the same thing with some of the classical etudes that I used to play, and never really worked. I can play up to DHC and play scales from low G to high G and back in one breath etc. but if I try for example the Charlier 2, it just won't sound nice. If I do not care how it sounds, or if I play it with a bigband sound in mind (which is kind of my new sound), then it is a lot better, but if I try to play it with my old classical sound it is not good, and I cannot play it. And this has nothing to do with not being able to play with a classical sound on a relatively balanced embouchure (for I know I still have some nuts to crack), but I think it is much a more psychological thing. It is as if it triggers you right into the old habits again. I don't really have a solution for this right now, but I am sure this will go away as soon as BE is owned and automated fully. Actually it is much better than a year ago, and sometimes I find myself playing things again that I had not been able to do for years.

Bert

[Hubi1]

Thank you all for your replies and your tipps.
Know i will going to set my focus on the roll-in. I guess that could be my problem and i have to work at it.
I hope i can inform you in my next post about my progress.
It is really great to get such a support!!!
Just one more question:
If i do the roll-in tonguing exercises, should i do the roll in soft or hard like the lip clamp?
Sorry about this question but i have a german translation of the BE-Book and there is no correct explanation

Hubi