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What will be the "legendary" vintage horn of the f


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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one thing that gives me hope is what is happening today with things like vinyl albums and the "foodie" movement. While the mass appeal is obviously towards digital music and convenient food, there is a strong sub-section of society that thrives on the more artisanal, crafted end of the spectrum. I don't see that trend changing. I firmly believe there will always be a segment that enjoys to process as much as the end result.
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AlanK17
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love for the Edwards X-13 to become a future classic, but in the meantime I'd suggest maybe the Marcinkiewicz horns?
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AndyDavids
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanK17 wrote:
I would love for the Edwards X-13 to become a future classic, but in the meantime I'd suggest maybe the Marcinkiewicz horns?
I've seen their website, beautiful models! They are not being produced anymore? Definitely a collector's item, rare as I haven't seen any...heard only 500 or so were made?
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevin_soda wrote:
People have not been this hungry for live music in 100 years.


Man, I know it! At a live performance, I can feel, hear, see, and almost taste the years of sweat and tears, and the emotion necessary to make it happen. I don't get that as much with recorded or electronically produced music.
I hope humans forever appreciate that.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost (though they have been around for 70 years), the Schilke B1, B2, B6, etc. When they stop making these, they will be as or more sought after than a 50s Committee or the few Mt. Vernon Strads that have not been ruined with longer leadpipes.

After that:
- Wild Thing (volume is a challenge - have to be enough out there to drive the market)
- Bach Artisan 37
- Bach Philly C
- Yamaha Chicago C (only if they dont keep making better ones)
- Yamaha Shew
- Monette Raja (Maybe, and more C than Bb, but volume will probably not be enough to make it)

All of these? Probably not. But from this list likely.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to take a different tack on this subject. I think there will be specific horns from the first 100 or so years that serious collectors will hunt down.

Arturo Sandoval's personal gold plated Wild Thing with his name engraved on the side of the bell. Bonus find: the matching Wild Thing with "Flip Oakes" engraved on it. Both horns produced and engraved at the same time.

Genuine documentable Louis Armstrong Selmer.

The trumpet used by Miles Davis to record A Kind of Blue

Dizzie Gilespie's upturned bell trumpet(s)

Harry James'trumpet(s)

The top choice for me (and I think there are several reasons, not the least of which is the singularity and world renown) is this:

Herb Alpert's gold lated Chicago Benge
that he played during the TJB years.

What are some you might covet, if you were to be a collector in 70 years?
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I already have one sort of like the above. It is the Holton C-150 pocket cornet owned and played by jazz great Don Ellis. I purchased it from his sister about 10 years ago.

It is actually a trumpet version which I believe is a one-off custom model made by Holton for Don. It came in its original case and it, along with the trumpet, are in remarkable, original condition.

It also came with one of Don's mouthpieces in gold plate, which is stamped COS. It has a stair-step outer design and was made by Rudy Muck.
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First and foremost (though they have been around for 70 years), the Schilke B1, B2, B6, etc. When they stop making these, they will be as or more sought after than a 50s Committee or the few Mt. Vernon Strads that have not been ruined with longer leadpipes.

After that:
- Wild Thing (volume is a challenge - have to be enough out there to drive the market)
- Bach Artisan 37
- Bach Philly C
- Yamaha Chicago C (only if they dont keep making better ones)
- Yamaha Shew
- Monette Raja (Maybe, and more C than Bb, but volume will probably not be enough to make it)

All of these? Probably not. But from this list likely.


What do you mean about the Mt.V leadpipes?

I played an original and unaltered 1,xxx bach not too long ago and did not like it at all. Very stuffy and tight but had a nice sound.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letstalktrumpet wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First and foremost (though they have been around for 70 years), the Schilke B1, B2, B6, etc. When they stop making these, they will be as or more sought after than a 50s Committee or the few Mt. Vernon Strads that have not been ruined with longer leadpipes.

After that:
- Wild Thing (volume is a challenge - have to be enough out there to drive the market)
- Bach Artisan 37
- Bach Philly C
- Yamaha Chicago C (only if they dont keep making better ones)
- Yamaha Shew
- Monette Raja (Maybe, and more C than Bb, but volume will probably not be enough to make it)

All of these? Probably not. But from this list likely.


What do you mean about the Mt.V leadpipes?

I played an original and unaltered 1,xxx bach not too long ago and did not like it at all. Very stuffy and tight but had a nice sound.


Bachs are by design among the higher resistance alternatives. Some folks dont like that (I am drifting that way myself). But they do respond reliably, with incredible tone, and project well. The 190 series seem to be a little less demanding of energy to make speak - not sure why - and may be a good alternative for someone looking for a Bach, but not liking that feel.

The Bach 180 (everything built after the first <25,000 horns - we're at a million now) has the same wrap height as the classic Mt. Vernon. To get some of the resistance and other characteristics he was after, Bach locked in on that initial radius at the tuning slide that has never changed. As the wrap grew taller over 3 successive increases, the front of the slide, which originally was a Besson D shape, ultimately became flat (like the Holton Bach performed on). That in combination with the what he was going for makes for a very "secure slotting" (or centers like a straight-jacket) type of horn. This relieves the player of much of the responsibility for centering the pitch, which is why the design has spread to the vast majority of makes out there today.

The 180 when it moved to Elkhart also became the heaviest horns Bach built - with the brass stock standards remaining the same today.

Vincent Bach however preferred a faster responding and more flexible centering horn. For that reason, not only were his standard bells the .020" stock we now call lightweight, but he deliberately designed the horn with a shorter leadpipe and lower sleeve so that you pulled about an inch for A=440. The interesting quirk of that longer disruption in the tube wall was to make the horn looser. While not as loose as a Schilke, it allows you to easily match whatever out of tune players you are with - a nice feature if you have the skills to be responsible for your own intonation

Unfortunately, with every Bach player out there today starting on a 180, when they finally get a coveted Mt. Vernon, they think something is wrong because it is looser - so they have Charlie Melk put a new leadpipe and sleeve on it. Ruining it as far as what Bach intended and for all of us who can find the center ourselves.

Unaltered Mt. Vernons are exceptionally rare today. I had a line on one new to market for $3400 last night. It was gone by 7 AM.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
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1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don’t think the full value of all the good existing designs have been explored yet. I would like to see the airflow in the valves maximized to the point where the airflow enters in the center of valves like some leblancs and conn vocabel or the olds superstar. To me these have the best blow. These horns all have same valves 1-3 and all line the slides with same exit. Surely with all the CAD and other tools valves could be configured to eliminate the bumps common to all current designs but MAW and these don’t have center flow. I also love the projection and tone of rimless bells, and think that more can be done with combinations of materials to tailor tone. Something like this will survive and thrive because it will help us play more efficiently. None of this new ground but it would make for a unusual looking trumpet compared to standard.
Just my opinion, and I am looking to build this if possible just for me.
Rod
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I'm looking for a 1st run WalMart trumpet in mint condition. Sure, there were millions built and sold, but one that hasn't fallen apart? What a money maker that would be! With an original purchase price of $150.00, I'm sure such a time capsule could sell at auction for, what... $155.00??


You read it here first.

Just sayin'
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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improver
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach. As they say they are the most copied trumpet in the world but never duplicated. Certainly there will always be other boutique horns for anti Bach guys, , but for the money Bach was is and will be gold standard.
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improver
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think Brett Getzen makes a great point. Certainly Getzen horns will be around.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that 'legendary' horns are good horns that no longer are produced. So we have to wait which company will be broke or assimilated in another one.
What are the legendary horns now? Olds , Martin, Bach NY and Mt V, Benge. All gone.
Candidates (I don't want to be cynical): Calicchio, Marcinkiewicz, Schilke B, maybe a Kanstul made.
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improver
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I'm not going to argue with the legendary horn thing, but with the purchase of a newer Bach 37 with a reversed leadpipe yesterday I'm convinced the new Bachs arer the best horn on the market today. Especially with all the custom options. They've upped their game even more. After listening to Paolo Fresu on his Bach I bought a newer one. Many European guys play them. Rava, Fresu, Cossimo Boni, Mathias Eich etc. For the money they play so well. Of course other makers make great equipment. I'm 63 and I'm at the stage I want the horn to play itself. I'm in agreement with Ingrid Jensen, I put the old tight restrictive refurbished equipment away.
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rick.willoughby@cox.net
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in 30-50 years WE the players will be the unobtainium. The antiques, the artifacts. The "They don't make em like they used to." pieces. I do want to go back to the future to get my hands on one of those perpetual draining never run out of air horns they will surely be stamping out of reprocessed styrofoam coolers then.
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read an interesting article about collective memory recently. They talking about Elvis memorabilia and how it depreciated dramatically over time. There was a period of time when almost everyone in the world knew who Elvis was and anything connected to him had some sort of added value. As the people with firsthand experience with Elvis pass away, the emotional connection to "the stuff" is broken. Certainly the legacy and music has carried on but even then there are probably more people who have don't know him than do. The other point of the article was that the twentieth century is a very unique time period in our history because of how we valued musicians. There are several reasons for this but mostly it's important to understand that children don't idolize musicians today the way they did during the twentieth century. I do think trumpet will remain as relevant as any musical instrument but what we think of as "trumpet sound" is bound to change and I think that puts a ceiling on the usefulness of historical pieces as musical instruments.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the point in the first page of this thread was that this would be comparable to the classic cars market, and I think in a way it is, but I am not sure about the conclusion.

Perhaps the ways in which those kinds of cars are special have a parallel to trumpets or cornets, with unconventional designs or evolutionary significance. I would guess the attachment is rather more emotional cultural significance.

The same era of classic cars today and in the 90's: is it because those cars are special and will always be the classic, or is it because it's the same boomers who were into it in the 90's are still into the same cars but just have gotten older?
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am deeply worried by the publics acceptance of lower and lower quality becoming the new standard year on year.

Computers today are 10,000 times faster than they were 30 years ago and yet they are slower to do tasks.

Websites are far more complex and tasks take much longer to perform than on older websites.

The complexity gives greater capability of course and we want that but people accept slower performance year on year believing it to be "normal" and soon normal is what would have been dumped in the dumpster years ago as worthless.

A certain web celebrity brass player has said that older instrument makers put silver on their instruments very thickly while answering a comment that certain instruments lose their silver coating back to brass within a year of manufacture.

Valves from some makers are problematic within a few months and instruments wear out within a year and are unrepairable and this appears by some to be the normal expected life of instruments now.

Many great makers like bach getzen shilke etc create great products but my comment is public perception of normality and quality changes for the worse over time.

In the next 100 years I foresee a move to injection moulded or 3d printed instruments and in such a time if it comes to pass the perceived quality may be nothing to do with our beliefs and the lusted after instruments may by then have become the ptrumpet the tromba and the like of today.

This sounds ridiculous but the perceived excellence may have nothing to do by then with resonance and the tone standards we use today.

It may come to pass that players in the year 2120 may laugh at us with our valves and having to oil metal instruments rather than using good plastic instruments with internal louvers and no need to oil.

Mouthpieces that can drop off, good god are they neanderthals. Get a good 3d printed leadpipe with integral 7c mouthpiece and heat weld it in place.

Brass instruments may well be consigned to museums by then, and the only place you see a committee might be in a glass case next to a sitting committee.
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman, a couple things.

Computers are in no way slower than they were 30 years ago. Name one task that is slower on 2020 computers than on 1990 computers.

As for instruments, I think there’s just a wider spectrum now. In many aspects, people who are serious about playing music expect MORE from instruments now than they did in the past. Of course our society has embraced some cheaper merchandise (throw away items). We have both cheaper made trumpets and better made trumpets than in the past.
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