How can I max out my air use for higher notes?

[trumpet_bob_silver]

Effectiveness and efficiency in air use for higher notes. That's what I'm thinking about here.

I'm middle aged. I'm not a student, not a beginner. I've probably heard it or taught it for ideas. I'm looking for something more precise about air use efficiency ("efficiency," yes, but I'm thinking effectiveness more than then just efficient).

I've never been able to play high. My goal is just to have a decent high C as an option. I can "sit" on notes around an F and G. I can tap a high C, but that's not very usable, and at the rate I'm going, this is going to take forever.

I think maybe it's been 20 years of practicing on my own. (I'm not interested in a teacher. Yep, mention, "Get a teacher," but I'm not doing that. A teacher isn't going to solve this. I've already met with teachers and gotten the usual information. None of that helped to crack the initial range block either.) During the past five years or so I finally figured out enough to crack my range issue. That ended up being things like getting better rest, eating more protein, getting better sleep, resting up to do a harder push on range instead of wearing out doing a daily routine, etc. That worked and is working, but it's slow. Too slow... I'll run out of life at the rate I'm going.

I have beefed up facial muscles for playing higher. The are muscles that need to function under the mouthpiece. Those have gotten stronger. I've noticed my checks have gotten stronger too. And I can tell when they're not there that day or worn out that things aren't going to happen for range. Along with that, I've noticed my ab muscles, but more so in that they getting bulged out or stretched out from breathing and definitely from pushing air for higher notes. So fine, the muscles are there. They're working. They're getting stronger.

What I'm thinking about now is that the muscles have gotten stronger, but progress is still slow. Plenty of people don't seem to have the issues I have with range. I've never heard anyone ever talk about their abs feeling stretched out from use from trumpet playing, not to the point that I would start thinking about and doing exercises to "reset" those ab muscles once I figured out what was happening. So if the muscles are an area I've gotten more control over but something's still not quite right, what could it be? Air. I'm not sure there's anything left.... except maybe physical set up, but I'm stuck there I think.

What I'm looking for is how to maximize my air use for the push and speed for higher notes. Higher notes being just up to a high C. I'm thinking it wouldn't involve the trumpet or mouthpiece so much. Breaking it down more...
Inhale -- Probably good enough. I'm full of air.
Push for air out -- Not bad, probably not the use. A little focus wouldn't hurt for the difference in air push for higher notes.
Throat, etc. -- Relaxed, good enough, attention doesn't hurt.
Tongue -- This is definitely where I'm thinking there's something for improvement.
Jaw position -- Possibly, for aligning the top and bottom teeth
Lips -- Definitely here too. Aperture control, endurance to hold position, a small aperture that's not too wide.

Getting too much oxygen can be an issue. I haven't mastered that.

It would be something like just blowing air out, doing the ah-ee tongue positions, making sure air it shooting out of the lips straight on, possibly adding the mouthpiece to that. After that it gets fuzzy... Too much, too fast (if possible), and the lips start to buzz. Volume might be too much too. It doesn't take a lot of air volume to have fast air speed.


Any thoughts? What exercises can I do with or away from the trumpet and mouthpiece to get my air flowing more effectively for higher notes? I understand the concept fine. What I'm doing must be off a little if the high notes aren't happening though, esp if muscle seem improved.

There may be something with the muscles under the mouthpiece still being pushed too much. I can still feel a dull ache from there, the same as I've felt when I focus on cheek muscles for soreness when I do a little more for an endurance push.

This might just need an extra section on my routine for breathing work without the horn, maybe with or without the mouthpiece. Something could possibly be done laying down in bed instead of a practice room. It gets around issues of getting too much oxygen while experimenting with breathing. Walking or something (exercise bike) would help to burn up O2 also to prevent hyperventillation.

[Richard III]

If you had to blow through a cocktail straw, how hard do you think you could blow? How much air?

Not much, right? Well, that's about what you need playing high. The massive air players are just using a more open aperture. And they sound like that too. To me they sound coarse. Not pleasant.

So tiny aperture. Focused. High notes get easier.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[JayKosta]

My upper range was limited very similar to what you describe about yourself.
Some fairly simple technique changes (not embouchure change) have helped me a lot.

What I discovered about myself is that I was using so much mouthpiece pressure, and so much 'lip squeezing', that air flow was PREVENTED regardless of how much internal air pressure I generated.

Yes the lips need to be adjusted to produce the desired pitch, but they must also be loose enough (including mpc pressure) to allow air flow that will produce the vibrations. I doubt that you lack adequate air pressure.

Below is a link to my thoughts about embouchure - mostly about what has to HAPPEN, and some about how to make it happen. It's a short read, not a lengthy book.

http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[AndyDavids]

Link

[HERMOKIWI]

Here's a simple formula for producing any desired note on the trumpet:

Adequate air supply + adequate air flow + adequate muscle power + correct chop setting/technique = desired note.

You can't overcome an incorrect chop setting/technique with more air supply, more air flow or more muscle power.

From your description you have plenty of air supply, plenty of air flow and plenty of muscle power. That leaves only your chop setting/technique as the problem.

High range is primarily a product of correct technique, not a product of muscle power or the myth of "faster air" (you can play every note on the trumpet with the same air speed simply by varying the resistance your lips place on the air stream).

Your problem with the higher register is that you are not employing the correct chop setting/technique.

I acknowledge your statement of disappointment/lack of success with your teachers. However, if you are going to learn the correct chop setting/technique you will have to undertake and carry out some process.

That process can be a "self-taught" process (there is plenty of information available on the internet and from published sources or you can just go through a process of trial and error) or you can learn it with direct interaction with a teacher. You can choose one or the other or both, whatever you feel is appropriate to you.

The fact that you have not been successful with a teacher could be a problem with the teaching process (the teacher may be giving you incorrect/ineffective information) or it could be a problem with the learning process (you may not be applying what you've been taught correctly) or it could be a problem with both.

The ideal situation is to work with a teacher who can give you accurate information regarding chop setting/technique and who can monitor your adherence to what the teacher has taught you and guide you through a process that yields results. Of course, your success obtaining those results also depends on you and your willingness and ability to do the things the teacher requires.

The fact that you have had teachers and have not achieved your desired results indicates that there has been a weakness in teaching, a weakness in learning or a weakness in both. What do you think it is?

You're not actually asking for extreme high range. You're just asking for range up to high C. That is a very conservative goal and one which most players would reasonably expect to achieve.

The facts that (1) you've made a considerable effort, (2) you seem to have plenty of air supply and air flow (most players do) (3) you've increased your muscle power, (4) your increased muscle power isn't changing your results and (4) you are experiencing a dull ache and soreness in your muscles indicates that the problem is that you are using an incorrect/inefficient chop setting/technique.

Until you correct your chop setting/technique you will continue to see the same results you are currently seeing. I'll repeat what I said above: You can't overcome an incorrect chop setting/technique with more air supply, more air flow or more muscle power. The longer you resist this truth the longer you will stay where you are in terms of results.
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HERMOKIWI

[SteveDurand]

Hermokiwi's post is spot on.

Steve

[steve0930]

Hi Bob

[royjohn]

I agree with Hermokiwi, who said:

[Colini]

Hi Bob

I like Steve's reply.

He mentions Paul Hayes and Greg Spence. Check them out. Paul recommends maintaining a high abdominal pressure but Greg advises very little work from the abs. His method gets you up to about C/D with very little abs push. So far so good for me as like you I just wanted a comfortable C so I could play everything required in my 3 bands.

I changed my setup as per Greg and it made a fantastic improvement. You need very little air to play. Like you, I have experimented and wasted lots of time getting advice from YouTube but it is fun. I have been round the circle so many times but I have decided to stick with Greg as it is so straightforward and works for me.

Best of luck.
Colin

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[gwood66]

[Andy Del]

Mindset. That is what needs changing. At the moment it comes across as a closed mindset (this is where I need to work, I have enough air, etc)

Cut things down o the very simplest - You know, or you don't know.

High notes. You don't know. So, getting some help is the only logical answer. What you have written here however, is

'I don't know how to play high and my considered opinions are not helping the way I want. Tell me what to do, as I will not pay someone to do so, as I don't seem to learn from a teacher.'
I'm sure you can see the dichotomy here. No one learns something until they learn it. That in itself is not cause to give up attempting to learn if you have failed so far. More so, it is the reason to continue in your search to find a GOOD teacher who can help you.

cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[blbaumgarn]

I can give you a proof that what Hermokiwi says is very true. When I was much younger I also lifted lots and lots of weights. From experience I found that when you start doing lifts to max out and determine what your max is you meet more and more a feeling of strain as you increase. If you max out at some time at 400lbs. on a power clean you will find that initially you feel 3, 4, or even 5 times the strain going from say 360 lbs. to 400. The only saving grace and the only thing that makes one able to increase the weight is following their routine and technique exactly on each lift no matter how much you lift. If you have the right set in your mouth on the mpc. you will be able to do the air and everything else the same and correctly, too. I believe Hermokiwi is right because if you alter how you set up or adjust air flow when you attempt higher range notes you are essentially playing two different trumpets. You can play three, really. A low range, middle range, and high range trumpet. Learn to do a solid set up and follow and higher notes will follow. Good Luck
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush