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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Pops wrote: | Reducing volume (yours) by 1/2 a level helps endurance and usually projection too. (Sometimes even 1 full level is needed.) On a LOUD gig you can't hear well enough to tell how much your sound spreads so you can't risk max volume.
Getting away from amps as much as possible helps and a shield helps. Unamplified (unmiked) a sound reflector is OK.
Next you KNOW what your setpoint feels like. You know what it takes to move a 3rd, a 5th... We often have to TRUST how a note (our embouchure) feels because we can't hear it.
Put in earplugs and record a practice. See how well you stay on pitch and resonant. Expand your feel outward from your homebase Lip SetPoint. Your setpoint is always ok. Then a 3rd either way is OK. Then work to a 5th....
It doesn't take long to gain the confidence to play by feel.
Lastly you say you can hit the notes in practice. Can you play 50 double high Cs a day?
The point is if you can only play 4-5 in practice it isn't usable. If you can play a bunch in practice it should be usable. |
I can not hit 50 in a row with perfect accuracy. It is a work in progress yes. We never are complete as musicians are we? we must always work to get better or we are going backwards right? By the way Pops, thanks for chiming in. I have purchased 3 of your books. Good stuff. |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I can never play as bright and loud as I need to in the practice room consistently as on a gig.. It's just too obnoxious! Mouthpiecewise, I learned awhile back to go with super bright and powerful..much more than I would think I need..and I get into the gig situations where I absolutely need it. Just saying to make sure your equipment is optimal for the gig and you're not working too hard..or 'pounding a nail with a banana' as Bobby Shew would say.
[/quote] _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Pops wrote: | On a LOUD gig you can't hear well enough to tell how much your sound spreads so you can't risk max volume. |
SAGE
Can you go back to about '77 and tell me that then? |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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HAHA! Lex, is that a washer you attach to the leadpipe?
Just kidding. I would like to hear how it sounds.
Quote: | Just saying to make sure your equipment is optimal for the gig and you're not working too hard..or 'pounding a nail with a banana' as Bobby Shew would say.
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Agree _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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musicman0097 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Posts: 601 Location: SF Bay Area, California
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Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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In my concert band that I play with, there was a song where a part of it was hard with out any break in it at all. There are four of us on the 1st part. So we split up the parts so we can take breaks. I know this is slightly different than what you were talking about but it relates. Is there a way for you to do this with the books?
Matthew _________________ Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Nate - I just got it last week and used it yesterday on a small group jazz session rehearsal for a recording next friday. I should have some good clips the week after to share. I am playing this top almost all the way unscrewed from the backbore for jazz. This creates leaks and turbulence which diffuses the sound. And I get the advantage of the shallowness of the cup:-) best. Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:34 am Post subject: |
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As for mouthpiece I have nearly ended my safari. I am playing two brands now.
Monette MFIII which has a more open back bore and a huge sound, not as much back pressure and sounds good on solo's (Not too thin), and Best Brass 7E. The Best Brass Groove piece plays similar to the Monette only with much more economy of air. The tuning of the two mouthpieces is the same so no adjustment there. I can actually scream better on the MFIII but the endurance is much better on the best brass piece. There are other pieces I have tried that will play higher with greater ease but I work much harder on them over the duration of a gig because tuning is all over the place on them.
If I am playing a Jazz gig I also am on Monette and Best Brass just with deeper cups.
musicman0097 wrote: | In my concert band that I play with, there was a song where a part of it was hard with out any break in it at all. There are four of us on the 1st part. So we split up the parts so we can take breaks. I know this is slightly different than what you were talking about but it relates. Is there a way for you to do this with the books?
Matthew |
Matthew, In my world musicians play for money. The band is hired for a price that is agreed upon by the client and the band. If we were to add another trumpet player (Something I have long been in favor of) the rest of the band would have to take less pay or we would have to charge the client more. The later doesn't seem to be a viable option in these economic times and with so many bands trying to compete for the same work. You don't want to price yourself out of the market. So as a result, when it has come to a vote the band has shot the idea of a second trumpet player down. I can always leave and take other gigs which I do often enough but as I said in the OP this band is one of the higher paying bands in the city. It pays in one gig what some players in town make on 3 gigs so I am left with trying to make it work as is. _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod
Last edited by sounds7 on Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BStrad43 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 294 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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How about using an in ear monitors? That way you control what you hear and trust the microphone. Plus save your ears from the extreme loudness the band is producing. |
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sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: |
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BStrad43 wrote: | How about using an in ear monitors? That way you control what you hear and trust the microphone. Plus save your ears from the extreme loudness the band is producing. |
I have tried this once on a gig but even with only me in the mix the rest of the band was getting in my microphone. It might work better with a mic with a very direct pattern however. |
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BStrad43 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2004 Posts: 294 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Have you tried using a clip on mic:
http://www.shure.com/americas/artists/arturo-sandoval
The in ear monitor might work better with a mic similar to this. Also, talk to the sound guy, buy them a drink or two or more, about monitor control for you. Making friends with the sound guy can make your job easier and more fun. Also, they might have a suggestion on what to do to help.
Also, contact the guys at Sweetwater to see what they can do to help
http://www.sweetwater.com/
But they are only one source, there are more out there.
Wish you the best with the search! |
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Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:03 am Post subject: |
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razeontherock wrote: | Pops wrote: | On a LOUD gig you can't hear well enough to tell how much your sound spreads so you can't risk max volume. |
SAGE
Can you go back to about '77 and tell me that then? |
In 77 "Jake" Don Jacoby was cussing me out for being stupid, stubborn and undisciplined.
I might not have been as much help back then. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Sounds, you may want to experiment the Drew Wilkie piece from Kanstul. I got a top which is .015 smaller in diameter. Drew's piece diameter is right around the .630 feel..like an MF.. You could get it a tad bigger to go with your 7E if you wanted. I had the 7E and 9E at one point..great pieces..but not shallow enough for me..and, yeah, I know..those things are pretty darn shallow! Anyway, the brightest, most cutting piece I've ever played.. and the shallowest. Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'll let you know this - I stopped trying to compete with loud bands a long time ago. I play with earplugs in now. I had to practice playing with them in, but I learned how to do it. Now when I play loud gigs, I only listen to my internal feedback that I get through the horn and my own body. I never overblow now. I know my "max volume" (about 80% actual maximum) from the practice room, and I trust that if they want to hear me out front, they'll turn that little knob and amplify me.
Now - I know that this will not work for everyone! But I'll tell you, it sure made my life easier.
In short - learn to play by feel! Plus the earplugs will keep your hearing fresh for when you play with musicians that know how to play at a reasonable volume! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:53 am Post subject: |
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There are certain bands that may not have very accomplished musicians in them. But who are very good at the business end of the music business. They know how to hook up with very good gigs. High paying weddings, parties, corporate evens, etc. It is pretty easy to perform, advertise, and promote pop and rock music without having a lot of skill as a musician. A lot of times, these bands have a core of musicians that are steady in the band. They are usually the rhythm section and vocalists. Then, they hire out horn players and other sidemen as necessary. These business people have studied the best way to promote and get top dollar for their music - just look at the most popular music (or, actually, 'music') of today. When a band like this calls in a trumpet player, they want someone who will come in and just play and be heard. They usually don't want to deal with micing a trumpet because they usually just don't know how to do it, are scrambling to set up and dealing with the catering hall/venue, and all the other logistics that come with coming in and doing a party/wedding or whatever. It actually is a pretty stressful thing to lead one of these bands from all my observations doing these gigs. They want someone extremely low maintenance who will just come in and play their part, and the less they have to think about you, the better off you are. You get a reputation for just coming in and getting the job done and leaving. If you start to become an element that starts to cut into their much needed time of working to set up all the other things they are trying to do to get ready for the gig, you may not get called back to work with this band again. If you are not heard well during the gig, you may also not get called back to do more gigs with that band.
You can make a trumpet sound extremely loud and bright..If you are sounding obnoxiously bright and loud in the practice room, you are probably all set to play with these loud electronic bands. It's funny to me that people are mentioning ear plugs as an OPTION on these gigs. I mean, unless you want to damage your hearing.
Efficiency is the name of the game. Look at what players played in the past. IMO, The Boss sounded absolutely the best in the 70's and after when playing with electronics when he was playing his ML Admiral horn.. In my experience (and this is just in general I know there are exceptions) a trumpet with a bore around .460 and a bell around 47/8ths strikes a balance with having the most powerful sound and giving enough endurance. There's a reason many cats speak so highly of the old Getzen Severinsens, the old Silver Flairs, and the new Carol 5000L's. Finding the shallowest mouthpiece you can play is essential. In my experience, many players can go shallower than they think. If you play with some lip curl, you can go extremely shallow. If you have more protrusion, you will need something a little deeper, but it will still have the same effect because the distance from your lip to the cup will be the same. Backbore - tightest you can go.. You know you have gone too tight when you start getting head rushes. Everyone's body is different and you will find the tightest backbore that works for you.
So you can do these types of gigs easily and efficiently, without killing yourself, and end up raking in an extra grand a week+ sometimes for just a few hours of work…easy money if you do it right! All the very best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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Trumpetstud Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2021 Posts: 208
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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ok guys, what is a super C (double high C)? |
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so what Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 617 Location: near Dallas
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Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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ljazztrm wrote: | There are certain bands that may not have very accomplished musicians in them. But who are very good at the business end of the music business. They know how to hook up with very good gigs. High paying weddings, parties, corporate evens, etc. It is pretty easy to perform, advertise, and promote pop and rock music without having a lot of skill as a musician. A lot of times, these bands have a core of musicians that are steady in the band. They are usually the rhythm section and vocalists. Then, they hire out horn players and other sidemen as necessary. These business people have studied the best way to promote and get top dollar for their music - just look at the most popular music (or, actually, 'music') of today. When a band like this calls in a trumpet player, they want someone who will come in and just play and be heard. They usually don't want to deal with micing a trumpet because they usually just don't know how to do it, are scrambling to set up and dealing with the catering hall/venue, and all the other logistics that come with coming in and doing a party/wedding or whatever. It actually is a pretty stressful thing to lead one of these bands from all my observations doing these gigs. They want someone extremely low maintenance who will just come in and play their part, and the less they have to think about you, the better off you are. You get a reputation for just coming in and getting the job done and leaving. If you start to become an element that starts to cut into their much needed time of working to set up all the other things they are trying to do to get ready for the gig, you may not get called back to work with this band again. If you are not heard well during the gig, you may also not get called back to do more gigs with that band.
You can make a trumpet sound extremely loud and bright..If you are sounding obnoxiously bright and loud in the practice room, you are probably all set to play with these loud electronic bands. It's funny to me that people are mentioning ear plugs as an OPTION on these gigs. I mean, unless you want to damage your hearing.
Efficiency is the name of the game. Look at what players played in the past. IMO, The Boss sounded absolutely the best in the 70's and after when playing with electronics when he was playing his ML Admiral horn.. In my experience (and this is just in general I know there are exceptions) a trumpet with a bore around .460 and a bell around 47/8ths strikes a balance with having the most powerful sound and giving enough endurance. There's a reason many cats speak so highly of the old Getzen Severinsens, the old Silver Flairs, and the new Carol 5000L's. Finding the shallowest mouthpiece you can play is essential. In my experience, many players can go shallower than they think. If you play with some lip curl, you can go extremely shallow. If you have more protrusion, you will need something a little deeper, but it will still have the same effect because the distance from your lip to the cup will be the same. Backbore - tightest you can go.. You know you have gone too tight when you start getting head rushes. Everyone's body is different and you will find the tightest backbore that works for you.
So you can do these types of gigs easily and efficiently, without killing yourself, and end up raking in an extra grand a week+ sometimes for just a few hours of work�easy money if you do it right! All the very best, Lex |
What a great post.
I miss Lex. Lots of insight. Good communicator.
Too bad he's gone. |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Trumpetstud wrote: | ok guys, what is a super C (double high C)? | For a b flat trumpet, I believe the note is concert Bâ™6 (1864.655 Hz). |
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