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Which do you recommend for use to play with an organ in church to accompany congregational singing? |
Schilke S22CHD trumpet |
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Schilke A2C cornet |
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[ 17 ] |
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Total Votes : 34 |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:09 pm Post subject: C Trumpet VS C Cornet for playing in church |
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I'm on the fence about a C horn. I am looking at two different options for playing hymns at church with an organ. The first candidate is a Schilke S22CHD trumpet. The second is the Schilke A2C cornet.
I'm interested in opinions on the subject. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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callee Regular Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2020 Posts: 20
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I voted cornet. The thing with congregational singing is that the congregation is supposed to be forefront, while the musicians are really supposed to be in the background, facilitating and supporting the congregation's singing. In my experience, a cornet blends in better, is less of an attention hog. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8348 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, your best bet would be to play both and see which you like better.
Having played many C trumpets and a few C cornets, I wouldn't be shocked if you like the C cornet better. I have. However, I don't think I've played that particular Schilke C trumpet. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 658
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I recommended trumpet because its more useful than cornet. If you're playing a C instrument, it's going to sound brighter than your Bb, so why bother with a cornet? A nice C trumpet is going to have a heraldic tone and a pure sound, and it will really resonate in the church. If OP is playing with a choir and organ, they'll want to ring out above the choir (in a good way), the same way a trumpet can be heard over an orchestra, even when playing at a mezzo forte. OP already has a Schilke HC2 and King Master cornet, both of which could easily fit the bill for "dark" sounding trumpet, so I don't see why they would need a C cornet. A C trumpet is a much more sensible addition to your arsenal, imo. |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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callee wrote: | I voted cornet. The thing with congregational singing is that the congregation is supposed to be forefront, while the musicians are really supposed to be in the background, facilitating and supporting the congregation's singing. In my experience, a cornet blends in better, is less of an attention hog. |
I had a couple of thoughts. One of them was exactly what you said. Another was, well, this was posted on Trumpet Herald a few times and it is a pretty persuasive argument for cornet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9UmCSc3W2s
Thanks for commenting. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Is the question directed to those who had played both, or at least one of mentioned Schilke instruments, preferably in a church setting? Schilke Bb cornets have LARGE presence and projection (no experience with their C) - the best is to bring both C instruments and see which works for which part.
Last edited by etc-etc on Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | I recommended trumpet because its more useful than cornet. If you're playing a C instrument, it's going to sound brighter than your Bb, so why bother with a cornet? A nice C trumpet is going to have a heraldic tone and a pure sound, and it will really resonate in the church. If OP is playing with a choir and organ, they'll want to ring out above the choir (in a good way), the same way a trumpet can be heard over an orchestra, even when playing at a mezzo forte. OP already has a Schilke HC2 and King Master cornet, both of which could easily fit the bill for "dark" sounding trumpet, so I don't see why they would need a C cornet. A C trumpet is a much more sensible addition to your arsenal, imo. |
Yep. That's the other side of the coin and exactly why I am on the fence. I actually love the sound of my Schilke HC1. I use it a lot. I can transpose music, at least up a step, easy enough. If I have time to work on a piece the HC1 is great. But, when sight reading music in unusual keys I make mistakes, particularly on incidentals or when ad libbing an obligato part. I thought that a C instrument would help me eliminate some of those flubs. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Grits Burgh wrote: | Goby wrote: | I recommended trumpet because its more useful than cornet. If you're playing a C instrument, it's going to sound brighter than your Bb, so why bother with a cornet? A nice C trumpet is going to have a heraldic tone and a pure sound, and it will really resonate in the church. If OP is playing with a choir and organ, they'll want to ring out above the choir (in a good way), the same way a trumpet can be heard over an orchestra, even when playing at a mezzo forte. OP already has a Schilke HC2 and King Master cornet, both of which could easily fit the bill for "dark" sounding trumpet, so I don't see why they would need a C cornet. A C trumpet is a much more sensible addition to your arsenal, imo. |
Yep. That's the other side of the coin and exactly why I am on the fence. I actually love the sound of my Schilke HC1. I use it a lot. I can transpose music, at least up a step, easy enough. If I have time to work on a piece the HC1 is great. But, when sight reading music in unusual keys I make mistakes, particularly on incidentals or when ad libbing an obligato part. I thought that a C instrument would help me eliminate some of those flubs. |
If you do not have a C trumpet, consider also Bach Philly C and Bach Chicago C.
Last edited by etc-etc on Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 658
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Grits Burgh wrote: | But, when sight reading music in unusual keys I make mistakes, particularly on incidentals or when ad libbing an obligato part. I thought that a C instrument would help me eliminate some of those flubs. |
I get where you're coming from. Keep in mind that a C instrument will take some getting used to with ears-to-fingers coordination if you're coming from a primarily Bb background. Let us know what you end up deciding, and have fun playing it! |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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I purchased a C trumpet for use in church. I hardly ever use it in the churchestra. (25 piece sudo studio church orchestra)
Nor did I use it in prior church settings.
I use my Bb 95% of the time, flugelhorn 4% and C < 1%.
The previous music minister, a former professional trumpet player, had me play my C a few times in situations where he wanted a brighter tone.
The current mm, also a pro trumpet player, knows I have the C but has not asked for it.
I understand this wasn’t the answer to your question but perhaps it might give you something to ponder. |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | Is the question directed to those who had played both, or at least one of mentioned Schilke instruments, preferably in a church setting? Schilke Bb cornets have LARGE presence and projection (no experience with their C) - the best is to bring both C instruments and see which works for which part. |
The question is really C trumpet vs C cornet. To narrow the discussion so it doesn't get into which C trumpet or which C cornet, I picked the models. I am so much in love with my Schilke HC1 (sound, valves, feel, build, ease of playing) that I am looking at horns with the Schilke brand. That said, I hope to be able to try a Getzen 3810 C cornet. I am hearing very good things about Getzen horns. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2120 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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Could you just put a deeeep mouthpiece on the trumpet? I have an old C trumpet for exactly the purpose you mentioned and the mp (Tilz, need to look up the model) works wonders.
Sometimes you can also find C flugelhorns, at least over here. Their shape varies from great to, well, not quite so great, but that could be fun as well and you would certainly not kill the choir. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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blbaumgarn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:46 pm Post subject: C trumpet vs. C cornet for playing in church |
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Now this is a great topic! I always used my Benge 5x trumpet but often considered getting a cornet to play in the church we attended as it was a modern design and carpeted in the worship area. It deadens sound somewhat in that kind of church so having the sound of the trumpet was only a little big of a benefit. Playing there with a cornet I could reach the whole audience and still have the more intimate sound of the cornet. If you haven't tried a C horn use your cornet or borrow one and transpose the next piece to see what you think.
In older style gothic churches I love standing by the organ, or playing from the balcony and turning loose the sound. I also transposed everything but would have loved having a C trumpet. Great topic. _________________ "There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1023 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds like you're wanting the C to ease transposing, not for the sound. I would pick whatever plays in tune best. I've played some on C but now just transpose as I like the tuning better on Bb. If you can get the music ahead of time, that's not a bad option.
I also have a carol c pocket trumpet. That's a less overwhelming sound. We had a guest trumpet player in our small church and he just buried us with his C (laser projection and bright). Honestly, it was too much for our space.
That said, I'm a big fan of more equipment Do folk play C cornet much? |
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RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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If you plan to use a C instrument outside of this setting, then I'd probably go with the trumpet and just use a cup mute or something in church if it's to forward.
Since you only described this venue, I voted cornet.
I am a VERY happy owner of an A2C and it the finest cornet I have played. (Still haven't played a new Getzen DLX, but I digress...) I use it all the time in wind ensemble settings (transposing) and the intonation is superior to most C horns I've played (C through G are spot on with no alternate fingerings). Keep in mind that this cornet was designed for orchestral use, so it does project quite well, but it is also mouthpiece sensitive, so a deeper British-style mouthpiece can make it very warm and round.
My only complaint on the A2C is that because the leadpipe is shorter, occasionally my third slide finger gets hung up on the bow if I need to be agile with the slide. Since you are talking about church hymns, I doubt highly technical slide work will be a factor for you. _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:54 am Post subject: |
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I get the C thing. I had an unexpected experience when I was reviewing the Kanstul 1410 Bb/C Convertible trumpet. I started with it in Bb at a rehearsal at my church. I tuned to the organ, which was a traditional style electronic console type, but I felt the horn just wasn't matching pitches. I listened in and the principle notes I was playing were on pitch, but something just wasn't right.
I switched out the slides and tried again in C. Voila! The overtone series lined up perfectly and the "fighting" stopped. I don't know if that was a quirk unique to the 1410, or if it would have happened with any C trumpet, but it made a noticeable difference to me that day.
On the other hand, when I started playing trumpet again, after 30 years off, I decided that I would learn to play by ear, which I just could not do before. I "built" all of the scales by ear, not by reading sheet music, and practiced them every day.
I took the hymnal we used at church and picked out hymns I knew well, looked at the written keys and starting notes, then worked out the melodies by memory. Next, I would play the same hymn in concert key. Sometimes, I would pick another key and work it out again. I resisted using the hymnal as a reference, unless I got stuck on an accidental or interval. After awhile, transposing was no longer an issue.
Reading music uses the analytical side of the brain. Improvising, transposing or playing by memory uses the creative side of the brain. At least for me, I had to create a bridge between the two by forcing myself to play the melodies I knew without looking at the music. Eventually, it helped my playing in all aspects. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I used to have a little trio with a piano player who had a huge book of tunes. I would look over her shoulder to play along. Transposing became second nature and it actually was difficult at one point to remember to play a regular Bb part again.
I don't think music is going to be complicated. Staying with your current instrument is certainly cheaper.
As for trumpet vs. cornet, I will always pick cornet. But I'm the cornet guy. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1871 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: Re: C Trumpet VS C Cornet for playing in church |
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Grits Burgh wrote: | I'm on the fence about a C horn.
A bunch of mouthpieces, none of which are the right feel, size, depth or sound - except for my Curry 3FLD. |
Try a C trumpet with the Curry 3TC (I think that's the model). I used the TC (with a different rim ) on my C trumpet in church for several years with good results.
Why? Well there are lots and lots of great C trumpets to pick from. Not too many choices when it comes to C cornets. |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | Could you just put a deeeep mouthpiece on the trumpet? I have an old C trumpet for exactly the purpose you mentioned and the mp (Tilz, need to look up the model) works wonders.
Sometimes you can also find C flugelhorns, at least over here. Their shape varies from great to, well, not quite so great, but that could be fun as well and you would certainly not kill the choir. |
A C flugelhorn. Hmmm. I haven't seen one of those. That is rather intriguing. I love flugelhorns. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy. |
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Grits Burgh Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Oct 2015 Posts: 805 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: C trumpet vs. C cornet for playing in church |
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blbaumgarn wrote: | If you haven't tried a C horn use your cornet or borrow one and transpose the next piece to see what you think. |
Your suggestion to try out my cornet first to get a sense of the cornet sound is a pretty good idea. However, my cornet doesn't have anything like a British/Shepherd's Crook cornet sound. I think that is primarily owing to the mouthpiece I use, a Curry 3P. I got the horn cheap to use to carry to New Orleans to play outdoors. The Curry mouthpiece produces an excellent sound for traditional jazz, but as for the traditional "sweet" cornet sound, ah, not so much. But perhaps an investment in a more traditional cornet mouthpiece might not be a bad idea. Curry makes some. _________________ Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
Last edited by Grits Burgh on Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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