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Establishing Credibility


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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
I finally figured out how to break through that barrier when I was 57 years old. Steve

Whatever you figured out, it sounds like it has worked well for you! Those are real notes... BUT (and I know you probably know this) you have got to get the pitch under control to make them usable in music. Otherwise they will just remain another parlor trick. Slowing your practice down to half notes or even down to whole notes should do the trick.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
SteveDurand wrote:
I finally figured out how to break through that barrier when I was 57 years old. Steve

Whatever you figured out, it sounds like it has worked well for you! Those are real notes... BUT (and I know you probably know this) you have got to get the pitch under control to make them usable in music. Otherwise they will just remain another parlor trick. Slowing your practice down to half notes or even down to whole notes should do the trick.
Not just pitch, but rhythm, articulation, etc all coordinated in tempo to make music. I can see the merit of being able to physically produce high sounds, but it seems a bit too disconnected from anything musical IMO.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
...I can see the merit of being able to physically produce high sounds, but it seems a bit too disconnected from anything musical IMO.

------------------------------
It is 'physical training' to develop the ability to produce and use those notes 'if and when' they would be useful.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
...I can see the merit of being able to physically produce high sounds, but it seems a bit too disconnected from anything musical IMO.

------------------------------
It is 'physical training' to develop the ability to produce and use those notes 'if and when' they would be useful.
I don't know of any circumstances when those notes would be useful due to the lack of tone, rhythm, articulation, and pitch, you know... musical fundamentals. It's like a basketball warmup where you shoot free throws at the ceiling instead of aiming at the basket.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:53 am    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
...I can see the merit of being able to physically produce high sounds, but it seems a bit too disconnected from anything musical IMO.

------------------------------
It is 'physical training' to develop the ability to produce and use those notes 'if and when' they would be useful.
I don't know of any circumstances when those notes would be useful due to the lack of tone, rhythm, articulation, and pitch, you know... musical fundamentals. It's like a basketball warmup where you shoot free throws at the ceiling instead of aiming at the basket.


Give the OP credit where credit is due. What you're hearing is just an exercise to produce pitches in the extreme high register. The tone is fine, they are real notes. The exercise doesn't involve rhythm or articulation so all you can do is speculate regarding the OP's rhythm/articulation ability. As for pitch, the notes in the extreme high register do not have solid slots. There's no musical context for pitch in the exercise anyway so there's no basis to criticize the OP in terms of how in tune he is playing or to predict how in tune he would be in a performance. There has never been an extreme high note player who plays perfectly in tune 100% of the time. Not Cat Anderson. Not Maynard Ferguson. Not Wayne Bergeron. Not anyone.

The OP isn't claiming to be Cat, Maynard or Wayne. Cat, Maynard and Wayne weren't built in a day but, no doubt, they started on a path similar to what you see in the exercise. So, good for the OP for progressing to his current level. There's room for all of us to increase our skills and the OP has made a good start in his ability to produce notes in the extreme high register. Those efforts should be encouraged.
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally listened to the video.

Steve has figured out the upper register. He doesn't need my help, or anyone's approval to continue down his path. He is doing just fine.

It is unfair to criticize his "musicality" based on this video. As he explains, he briefly works on his chops setting in his first session, and works on music (scales, etc) later in the day.

The additional argument, that such high note exercises cannot possibly lead to a musical result, is just a narrow bias. It is something that you cannot possibly know. Individuals respond to exercises differently.

I remember hearing Doc in a clinic back in the early 90's, when he was still in his prime. A friend (band director) and I got to hear his first warmup, and his final performance.

His first warmup was cringe-inducing. My friend and I thought that he was finally over the hill. He attempted to demonstrate several things, and sounded bad on all of them. Strangely, he seemed undisturbed by the odd noises he was making.

Later in the day, we learned why. He performed awesomely, as usual.

Jeff
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
...I can see the merit of being able to physically produce high sounds, but it seems a bit too disconnected from anything musical IMO.

------------------------------
It is 'physical training' to develop the ability to produce and use those notes 'if and when' they would be useful.
I don't know of any circumstances when those notes would be useful due to the lack of tone, rhythm, articulation, and pitch, you know... musical fundamentals. It's like a basketball warmup where you shoot free throws at the ceiling instead of aiming at the basket.


Give the OP credit where credit is due. What you're hearing is just an exercise to produce pitches in the extreme high register. The tone is fine, they are real notes. The exercise doesn't involve rhythm or articulation so all you can do is speculate regarding the OP's rhythm/articulation ability. As for pitch, the notes in the extreme high register do not have solid slots. There's no musical context for pitch in the exercise anyway so there's no basis to criticize the OP in terms of how in tune he is playing or to predict how in tune he would be in a performance. There has never been an extreme high note player who plays perfectly in tune 100% of the time. Not Cat Anderson. Not Maynard Ferguson. Not Wayne Bergeron. Not anyone.

The OP isn't claiming to be Cat, Maynard or Wayne. Cat, Maynard and Wayne weren't built in a day but, no doubt, they started on a path similar to what you see in the exercise. So, good for the OP for progressing to his current level. There's room for all of us to increase our skills and the OP has made a good start in his ability to produce notes in the extreme high register. Those efforts should be encouraged.
I can agree with that. I don't mean to say the OP doesn't have musicality or any of the other fundamentals down. I apologize if it seemed that way. I personally wouldn't warm up this way but mean no disrespect, and was just sharing my reaction. To each their own.
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BGinNJ
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was very interesting, and seemed unconventional to me. Just goes to show there's lots of different ways to do things. The methods I've always seen with warm-ups is low & slow, long tones, slurs & such.

It's great you finally unlocked the mystery of playing up there. Honestly, though, it reminded me of my wife's tea kettle.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGinNJ wrote:
that was very interesting, and seemed unconventional to me. Just goes to show there's lots of different ways to do things. The methods I've always seen with warm-ups is low & slow, long tones, slurs & such.

It's great you finally unlocked the mystery of playing up there. Honestly, though, it reminded me of my wife's tea kettle.


It's easier to play the extreme high register at the beginning of a session than it is at the end. So, if you're focusing on playing the extreme high register you might start out with that since that is the priority.

The overall problem with this is that it is not really a "warm up" since it starts with maximum muscle involvement rather than building up to that (building up to that is the purpose of warming up). If you start with maximum muscle involvement you may stiffen things up rather than loosen things up. The result is that you may have difficulty with flexibility in the normal range during that session.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGinNJ wrote:
... The methods I've always seen with warm-ups is low & slow, long tones, slurs & such. ...

------------------------------------
I do not think the 'high playing' was supposed to be thought of as a 'warm-up' method - merely as a demonstration of what pitches could be sounded without an actual warm-up.

A sometimes mentioned alternative to a warm-up that starts 'low' is to begin in the upper part of the middle range - perhaps around the C / E area. The thought being that by starting in the middle, and expanding both upwards and downwards, the embouchure is given a more balanced warm-up session. In that way the entire range can be covered in a see-saw pattern, instead of first establishing the low range and then pushing higher.

Of course, individual physiology is important to consider. If starting too high causes problems (stiffness, pain, irritation, etc.) then doing it as a warm-up is counter-productive.
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason that I start with the high range is that my embouchure setting for notes above high C is slightly different than those below High C. I have found that if I start with lower notes I have a hard time getting the "feel" right for playing the higher notes later on.

The intent of doing it this way is to get the right setting for the upper register and then extend that down.

You may have noticed a brief section where I alternated between low C and Double C. I do that to make sure that I am not setting up stiff chops and that I have flexibility to cover the whole range.

This is just a very brief piece of my warmup routine. I do not exclusively focus on high notes. I just start out that way.

I think that my crummy cell phone mic is party responsible for the "tea kettle" aspect of the sound. I am working on improving my recording set-up
and then I'll post some clips addressing some of the comments brought up in this thread.

Thank you all.

Steve


Last edited by SteveDurand on Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a nutshell? It appears that when the O/P broke through the High D barrier that he basically learned ''how to keep his 'reed' in the instrument''.

In many of trumpet player Roy Roman's exercises (he was the teacher of the Stevens-Costello System) were examples of him first playing incorrectly. This would produce either a weak tone or no results at all. Then after readjusting and correcting his chops he would produce a fine tone.

As an analogy, if someone were to install a reed on a tenor sax backwards? Like with the flat part of the reed reversed with the round portion? It would produce either a strange, unmusical effect or no sound at all. However just as soon as the reed is replaced correctly? The tone would sound excellent.

In the O/P's case? It would be interesting for us to observe him playing in his former way. As he did prior to breaking through his cut-off point. THEN going back to his successful way and demonstrate the difference.
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Jchtrumpet1
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be happy to be able to do what the OP is doing.... I am stuck at F above high C......he obviously is not stuck there.

The OP knows something I don’t, and has discovered something I have not. I would like to hear what you have to say about the path to your breakthrough.
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's people offering advice (free or paid) have varying qualifications and credence.

For example, I've seen several players come from the woodwork (all happen to be overly-confident high-note jocks) who have either a single claim-to-fame then never got any meaningful work ever again - all of them have a method, or online lessons, or valve oil, or a horn, blah blah blah. That's not to say there isn't some diamonds amongst the rough, but I'd hazard a guess that most of it appeals to the insecurities of the hacker.

Then there's educators who have spent years developing and thinking about how to play, who may not necessarily have applied themselves in professional settings. There's also those who happen to have a shoe in both the professional world and pedagogy world. Greg Spence, Dan Rosenboom, Anthony Plog, and countless others who have theses and years of research behind them.

Then there's the internet - with roughly a population of 4.6 billion, hosting robust debates about whether the earth is a globe or not. It's a fun place to have a stupid argument.
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sdr93trp
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would generally expect someone giving advice, teaching lessons, etc. for money to at least be a somewhat decent player. If not, they're either not following their own advice or their advice isn't good. This is of course barring things like health and dental problems.

On the internet, you just have to be careful. Anyone can get on a forum and pretend to be an expert these days.

But if someone claims to teach trumpet and they sound like they couldn't even make a regional high school honor band, that's probably not a good sign. There are exceptions, but they're just that. Exceptions.

Someone above also mentioned Carmine Caruso. That kind of thing really is rare. I wouldn't count on a lot of Carmine Caruso's running around today.

It's also not a guarantee that a really gifted player is going to be a good teacher. In fact, I've heard that many top professional musicians (on all instruments) are very average teachers at best.

The moral of the story is, life is hard and we do the best we can with the resources we have available to us.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdr93trp wrote:
You would generally expect someone giving advice, teaching lessons, etc. for money to at least be a somewhat decent player. If not, they're either not following their own advice or their advice isn't good. This is of course barring things like health and dental problems.

On the internet, you just have to be careful. Anyone can get on a forum and pretend to be an expert these days.

But if someone claims to teach trumpet and they sound like they couldn't even make a regional high school honor band, that's probably not a good sign. There are exceptions, but they're just that. Exceptions.

Someone above also mentioned Carmine Caruso. That kind of thing really is rare. I wouldn't count on a lot of Carmine Caruso's running around today.

It's also not a guarantee that a really gifted player is going to be a good teacher. In fact, I've heard that many top professional musicians (on all instruments) are very average teachers at best.

The moral of the story is, life is hard and we do the best we can with the resources we have available to us.
I totally agree with your perspective, but will say as a band AND orchestra teacher, we have to teach instruments that we are not very good at. I wouldn't teach private lessons on violin, but I feel like I can offer really helpful feedback to musicians on all the band and orchestra instruments up to a certain level, especially musically, less so technically at the more advanced levels. But, I feel like I could get a student started on the right path for the first couple years from absorbing experience and studying the teaching of specialists on each instrument.

The future of music education is going to be less about specialization in a particular instrument, or musical style, and more about good pedagogy across a wide swath of music. After all, studying music is a personal journey a student goes on whether or not they have a master specialist teacher. I think I could have gotten through my college degrees in music without the instruction of my applied teachers. I value more the personal relationships and time spent with them as PEOPLE more so than anything technical they taught me about trumpet playing. They could have been a flute player for all I care, the most important thing is that they are a good musician and know how to teach, and what is important.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I should be posting this ... but I'll risk it.

I've just been reading through this thread from A to Z and reckon there are a few sceptics here regarding Steve Durand's claim and ability to play in the high (maybe that should be super high) register.

FWIW, to understand how he managed to achieve what he claims I'd suggest this link, a few posts down will help you understand the "how" of his success.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=156372

Steve's post, which I very much appreciated, was a response to my request for those who had tried the Stevens & Costello method to share their experience. Check it out.

For me, I'm yet to achieve some consistency in "where I'm at" before I have another go at Stevens & Costello. S & C for me, is not easy. For me it involves a retraining of my embouchure and jaw position. In short, I'm not ready for that just yet.

This comment totally FWIW.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:

So, in this video I just have the first few minutes of what I do every day. I always start off with getting my chops set up for playing high.

I finally figured out how to break through that barrier when I was 57 years old.

Steve

I'd be curious to hear what happens when you take a crack at this sample from the Michael Haydn concerto in D. Not at all demanding technically, very melodic. Simple enough to work out the fingerings - on a Bb horn the first note is F#.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jVuIO1gaMehQuF-dAFm0AMi1vIlfKNmD/view?usp=sharing
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SteveDurand
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P,
That's a good challenge. I'll work on it.

Steve
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Establishing Credibility Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
SteveDurand wrote:

So, in this video I just have the first few minutes of what I do every day. I always start off with getting my chops set up for playing high.

I finally figured out how to break through that barrier when I was 57 years old.

Steve

I'd be curious to hear what happens when you take a crack at this sample from the Michael Haydn concerto in D. Not at all demanding technically, very melodic. Simple enough to work out the fingerings - on a Bb horn the first note is F#.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jVuIO1gaMehQuF-dAFm0AMi1vIlfKNmD/view?usp=sharing
That's a really tough gauntlet. Maybe just a crack at Maynard Gonna Fly Now, goes just as high but requires less finesse and flies by a lot quicker.
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