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Rsrfl New Member
Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 3
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject: Underbite newbie question |
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I know that questions about underbite have an asked before. I’m in a different situation. I’m actually a flute player, but my eight-year-old is interested in playing the trumpet. He does have an underbite. I’m wondering if it’s worth starting at all? Or is this just going to be really rough uphill battle for him? Are there any well-known trumpet players who have underbites? |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I have an underbite and I am doing fine.
I may not be the best and I may not ever be anywhere near the best but I have loved every minute I have spent learning trumpet and cornet and I would not have missed it for the world. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Way too much thinking. Under bite. Overbite. Tooth a little bit out of alignment. Bunch of stuff that that held no one back in times long past. Just play that horn. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:59 am Post subject: |
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It might be a problem if both the upper and lower teeth (and lips) cannot to be used to support the mouthpiece rim. It can be important to adjust and transition the amount of rim pressure between the upper and lower lips. That usually means the jaw needs to be controlled to provide and maintain upper and lower lip pressure on the rim.
Some people accomplish it by tilting the horn, but I think it is important to also do it by jaw adjustment. Not much actual jaw movement is needed. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Underbite newbie question |
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Rsrfl wrote: | I know that questions about underbite have an asked before. I’m in a different situation. I’m actually a flute player, but my eight-year-old is interested in playing the trumpet. He does have an underbite. I’m wondering if it’s worth starting at all? Or is this just going to be really rough uphill battle for him? Are there any well-known trumpet players who have underbites? |
Take him to a qualified teacher. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Underbite newbie question |
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....... _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs
Last edited by theslawdawg on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Underbite newbie question |
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theslawdawg wrote: | Billy B wrote: | Rsrfl wrote: | I know that questions about underbite have an asked before. I’m in a different situation. I’m actually a flute player, but my eight-year-old is interested in playing the trumpet. He does have an underbite. I’m wondering if it’s worth starting at all? Or is this just going to be really rough uphill battle for him? Are there any well-known trumpet players who have underbites? |
Take him to a qualified teacher. |
No need. There are a bunch of TH members who are experts through the "Trumpet Mastery by Forum Posts" program! |
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Rsrfl New Member
Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 3
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: Thank you! |
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Thanks for the feedback! Maybe we’ll try him out with a teacher and see how it goes! |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Thank you! |
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Rsrfl wrote: | Thanks for the feedback! Maybe we’ll try him out with a teacher and see how it goes! |
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Since he is enthusiastic about playing trumpet, that's the way to go.
And before before getting a trumpet, ask the teacher if a short term loaner might be available. Rental is also an option. And used instruments can often be found on craigslist - good brand names are Bach, Yamaha, King, Blessing, Conn, Jupiter, Getzen, Olds, etc.
If you have friends who play trumpet, maybe one of them has a spare. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I can't say for sure but the upward angle of their horns would suggest to me that Al Hirt and Woody Shaw had a bit of an underbite. I personally find it awkward to play that way and have no real functionality and assume it's natural to some because their dental and jaw structure is very different than mine.
I'd say the only way to tell if they're going to have success is for them to try with competent instruction and see what happens.
_________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Rsrfl New Member
Joined: 10 Apr 2021 Posts: 3
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Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:09 pm Post subject: Thank you! |
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OK, you convinced me! I think at least at one of those trumpet players looks like they have an underbite. And he really really wants to give it a try. So we will! Thank you for all of the encouragement! |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:14 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the upward angle of the horn has anything to do with underbite. |
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BudBix Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 519 Location: United States
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:59 am Post subject: |
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Most people have underbites. It's not a deal breaker at all. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:09 am Post subject: |
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This online article…
https://lakeforestdentalarts.com/good-bite-bad-bite/
…states...
"About 70 percent of the population has some degree of an overbite.”
I believe that the bite, over or under, can very much be an influencing factor to horn angle. But I’ve been a professional player and teacher for many years with multiple degrees in music, so what would I know? |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | I can't say for sure but the upward angle of their horns would suggest to me that Al Hirt and Woody Shaw had a bit of an underbite. I personally find it awkward to play that way and have no real functionality and assume it's natural to some because their dental and jaw structure is very different than mine.
I'd say the only way to tell if they're going to have success is for them to try with competent instruction and see what happens.
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I think the second picture is Art Farmer.
BTW the article mentioned by dstpt tells us that 5 to 10 % of the population has an underbite. So If you are both right an underbite is very good for trumpetplayers. There are heaps of trumpetplayers that play with an upward angle, (surely more than 5 to 10 %) to mention a few besides the ones already mentioned: Miles Davis, Andrea Giuffredi, indeed Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown (maybe), Chris Botti and so on. Still I think that the upward angle has no direct relation with over- or underbite, it's just the right way of playing for a lot of players. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:53 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | ...I think the second picture is Art Farmer.
BTW the article mentioned by dstpt tells us that 5 to 10 % of the population has an underbite. So If you are both right an underbite is very good for trumpetplayers. There are heaps of trumpetplayers that play with an upward angle, (surely more than 5 to 10 %) to mention a few besides the ones already mentioned: Miles Davis, Andrea Giufreddi, indeed Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown (maybe), Chris Botti and so on. Still I think that the upward angle has no direct relation with over- or underbite, it's just the right way of playing for a lot of players. |
Correction, delano; what I wrote was: "I believe that the bite, over or under, can very much be an influencing factor to horn angle." I've seen pros up close that have a definite overbite and yet play with an upward angle. They have to adjust their natural jaw position, but they found that it works for them. Nevertheless, in my experience, dental structure can play into how a person sets up and thus influence horn angle. I am also not saying that your list of jazz and commercial artists playing with an upward horn angle means they all have/had underbites. I quoted that article to bring attention to the statement by BudBix...
BudBix wrote: | Most people have underbites. It's not a deal breaker at all. |
To the contrary, I’ve always understood the opposite, that most of the population has an overbite. Now the number of successful trumpet players over, say, the last century may or may not represent a 30-70 ratio of underbite to overbite, simply because of instances like those with overbites may have found jutting the jaw works better for them. All I’m saying is, in my experience as a teacher and having studied brass embouchure in hundreds of students and professionals through the years, that a person’s bite and other components of dental formation can be a determining factor in horn angle.
To the OP Rsrfl: Please note there are many individuals on TrumpetHerald with a wide variety of backgrounds. Some are professional players and/or have teaching experience, some are/do not. As a pro and a teacher, I’d echo what Billy B has already stated: "Take him to a qualified teacher.” However, I’d add this: There are some teachers that believe strongly that all players should play with a slight downward angle. For those with an underbite, this could be debilitating. I’ve seen it happen. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:38 am Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | delano wrote: | ...I think the second picture is Art Farmer.
BTW the article mentioned by dstpt tells us that 5 to 10 % of the population has an underbite. So If you are both right an underbite is very good for trumpetplayers. There are heaps of trumpetplayers that play with an upward angle, (surely more than 5 to 10 %) to mention a few besides the ones already mentioned: Miles Davis, Andrea Giufreddi, indeed Woody Shaw, Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown (maybe), Chris Botti and so on. Still I think that the upward angle has no direct relation with over- or underbite, it's just the right way of playing for a lot of players. |
Correction, delano; what I wrote was: "I believe that the bite, over or under, can very much be an influencing factor to horn angle." I've seen pros up close that have a definite overbite and yet play with an upward angle. They have to adjust their natural jaw position, but they found that it works for them. Nevertheless, in my experience, dental structure can play into how a person sets up and thus influence horn angle. I am also not saying that your list of jazz and commercial artists playing with an upward horn angle means they all have/had underbites. I quoted that article to bring attention to the statement by BudBix...
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I did read you well but I was not sure what you meant by 'influencing factor'. On that point I think I agree with you if that means that the dental structure has influence for example on how much ankle is used. My point was more that playing with more or less an upward angle is a conscious choice. |
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lschofield New Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2020 Posts: 6 Location: Silver Spring, MD. USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Overbite or not, I'm sure a parent doesn't want to see that picture of Hirt blowing with a cigarette in his left hand and a martini on the stand. _________________ 2018 Schilke HC2
2017 Schilke Flugelhorn
2017 Tromba (blue plastic)
1975 Benge (LA)
1972 Olds Ambassador |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Upper / lower teeth and lip alignment (and 'roll'), and mouthpiece angle all affect what lip surfaces are exposed to the air flow.
It can affect the directional 'feeling' of the air flow - straight towards the bottom of the cup, or a feeling of the air being directed upwards or downwards in the cup.
The goal is to obtain the desired air vibrations / pulses, and not have the lips locked into a 'cannot move' (or 'moves wrong') position. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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