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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:16 pm Post subject: C Trumpet Opinions |
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Hi All,
I know, another of these type of threads but I'm looking for advice. Am in the market for a good C trumpet. The options I'm seeing around the place I could afford are:
- Used Yamaha Chicago 9445 gen1
- Used Bach 229 25h
- Shires Q11 / Q13 (new)
- Yamaha xeno 8445 C used
Those are pretty much the options I can afford at present.
Any advice on which would be the best option? Unfortunately they're all sold by different stores in different states so can't really play test them properly. |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Yamaha 9445
Yamaha 8445
Bach 229 25H
Shires Q
Yamaha 9445 series are the most popular with top orchestral players in the US at the moment. I'd consider them to be a cut above the 8445. Bachs are hit-or-miss, and Yamaha quality is much better and more consistent, so I'd put the used 8445 over the Bach 229 if you can't play-test first. The Shires Q horns are built on Eastman valve blocks, and possibly even with Eastman bells, so you're not really getting the full Shires experience. They're probably nice, but Shires C's don't get as much respect as Bach and Yamaha in the world of orchestral playing. The Q series is more of an entry level pro model, so if prices are the same, the other 3 horns are more bang for your buck. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:25 am Post subject: |
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I'm not recommending a Bach, but if you are considering the Bach C, I'd recommend at least trying the 25A leadpipe in addition to the ever-present 25H. Not everyone loves the 25H, people rarely try anything else.
It wouldn't hurt to blow the 239 also. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2046 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:28 am Post subject: |
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The Bach and the two Yamaha models are well made/designed, and very popular for good reason. Really just a matter of personal preference. No way to know which will work best for you without trying them.
I really like the Bach 229 bell, but not the 25H leadpipe, so FOR ME, either Yamaha model would be a better fit if I was limited to that list.
I haven't played the Shires Q C trumpets yet. I've owned a Shires 4F and a 5F, and thought they were fine horns, and the Q10 I owned was excellent as well. So, the Q11 and Q13 are likely comparable in quality to the other horns on your list. The Q11 has a Bach 229/Shires 4 bell taper, which is similar to the other horns on your list. The Q13 would be along the lines of the Bach 239 bell.
The only note of...caution...I would offer about the Shires Q series horns is that they do not seem to hold their value as well as the Shires Custom model trumpets, and likely would not hold their value as well as the used Bach and Yamaha models on your list. That doesn't matter if the horn is a good match and you plan to play it for 30 years, but is a consideration given that you won't be doing much testing before you buy.
Good luck! |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | Yamaha 9445
Yamaha 8445
Bach 229 25H
Shires Q
Yamaha 9445 series are the most popular with top orchestral players in the US at the moment. I'd consider them to be a cut above the 8445. Bachs are hit-or-miss, and Yamaha quality is much better and more consistent, so I'd put the used 8445 over the Bach 229 if you can't play-test first. The Shires Q horns are built on Eastman valve blocks, and possibly even with Eastman bells, so you're not really getting the full Shires experience. They're probably nice, but Shires C's don't get as much respect as Bach and Yamaha in the world of orchestral playing. The Q series is more of an entry level pro model, so if prices are the same, the other 3 horns are more bang for your buck. |
I know the Yamaha 9 series are very popular at present, but wasn't sure if that was only the Gen III.
Can anyone speak to the Gen I models? |
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Proteus Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2010 Posts: 130 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Those are pretty much the options I can afford at present. |
Given your line above and if you're not averse to trying something off the beaten path, see what you think of a CarolBrass C trumpet. I just bought this one new (https://www.thomannmusic.com/carol_brass_ctr_4000h_yss_c_l.htm) for $1,350 CDN. It plays incredibly well and the price was a steal.
This model: (https://www.thomannmusic.com/carol_brass_ctr_6580h_glsd_c_s.htm) is their top of the line C, and judging from the 4000H in terms of sound, blow, intonation and build quality, it's absolutely worth a try. And you just can't beat the price. _________________ Bach 239 C
Kanstul 700
Getzen Proteus 907S Bb
Bach Strad 37 Bb (70s)
ACB Doubler flugel
Getzen Capri cornet |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:03 am Post subject: |
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I've thought about a Carol. I actually own the 4000H and it is a great Trumpet for the price but I just don't quite feel in sync with it. It's a bit tight on the front and a bit big on the bell end I think. But otherwise a nice instrument.
I actually owned a 5062-RLM(D) but found I had trouble with the intonation above the staff, I think the bell was too big and didn't balance with well. For that reason I'm a bit wary of buying another Carol without playing it first. They are a very well built but sometimes are just a combination of components someone ordered and said worker for them, rather than a carefully designed instrument. So sometimes they really play like a million bucks and sometimes not so much.
Don't get me wrong - great horns and very well constructed! |
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Michael Arndt Regular Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 16 Location: Nashville, TN
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:56 am Post subject: |
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The generation 1 Yamaha artist series horns are excellent. When they first came out, they had a large following and played with great sound, response, flexibility, etc. those horns are excellent and I keep my eyes open for them for my students. I’d be happy to play one in the orchestra, recording studios, or solo/chamber performances. I only switched when the principal in Nashville moved on to Blackburn. That decision for him was to fit the new hall. I’ve found it advantageous (not necessary) to match horns across the section. They also retain good resale value. Happy hunting. _________________ Michael Arndt
Middle Tennessee State University
615-898-2480
mtsubrass.com |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Michael Arndt wrote: | The generation 1 Yamaha artist series horns are excellent. When they first came out, they had a large following and played with great sound, response, flexibility, etc. those horns are excellent and I keep my eyes open for them for my students. I’d be happy to play one in the orchestra, recording studios, or solo/chamber performances. I only switched when the principal in Nashville moved on to Blackburn. That decision for him was to fit the new hall. I’ve found it advantageous (not necessary) to match horns across the section. They also retain good resale value. Happy hunting. |
Thanks Michael, that was the sort of assurance I was hoping for with regards to the 9445 gen I which was the one I was eyeing most closely. |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:14 am Post subject: |
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I have been listening to this comparison between models, and did think the YM had a little bit more core to the sound, but the differences otherwise seem negligible. I'd be more than happy to sound like Chris Smith playing the Gen 1
https://youtu.be/XfARY3-Y4nU |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:00 am Post subject: |
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A good 229 is hard to beat. But I know several quality players who sound great on Yamaha horns. Play some Bachs and Yamahas and I suspect you will discover a strong preference for one or the other. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1784
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
I know the Yamaha 9 series are very popular at present, but wasn't sure if that was only the Gen III.
Can anyone speak to the Gen I models? |
Gen I are solid. Often still played over Gen II or III even by pros with access to them. It's just a matter of preference and particular horn you get to play.
For used horns, unless you're going to put a lot of time and energy into it, I'd go with Yamaha and would only consider the artist model. Even a good 8445 wouldn't be found in an orchestra. Warning, you can find a particular yamaha that doesn't quite gel with you (so it's not foolproof).
My strategy for a good used bach C is I just happen to play one that a colleague has and you go: well hey, that's pretty good, i'll buy that off of you. Otherwise it's too much unknown through online purchases unless the person selling is an well known orchestral player/conservatory level student.
If you're in high school, get a good teacher over getting a new trumpet. Then have them guide you through the buying process. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I'll just make this comment - If you purchase a Yamaha or Bach, there are many after market upgrades available for future tweaking. Blackburn leadpipes, M/K leadpipes and slides, custom valve stems, bottom and top valve caps etc. Frequently these can be found used. |
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CTeneyck Regular Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2001 Posts: 80 Location: Framingham, MA
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'll second previous comments about Yamaha artist models vs the 8445. I have an 8445 as I couldn't justify spending more; the artist models are worlds better. |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
I know the Yamaha 9 series are very popular at present, but wasn't sure if that was only the Gen III.
Can anyone speak to the Gen I models? |
Gen I are solid. Often still played over Gen II or III even by pros with access to them. It's just a matter of preference and particular horn you get to play.
For used horns, unless you're going to put a lot of time and energy into it, I'd go with Yamaha and would only consider the artist model. |
Cheers for the thoughts. This was my thinking as well.
I did briefly play test a Yamaha 9445 Chicago back in 2019 and thought it was a beautiful playing instrument. At that point in time I wasn't paying much attention to which gen it was, but thinking about it now, I'm pretty sure it had the standard yamaha receiver, which looks like it was changed for the second generation.
For me at this point in time, I've been playing and practicing a lot of C trumpet and have found that in a lot of ways, I actually much prefer C to Bb. I just find it easier to play and I think I sound better on it, and am ready to just make this my main axe as much as possible. The only thing that bugs me about C trumpets is the various intonation quirks. But Yamaha's are usually above average in that department. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1784
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
The only thing that bugs me about C trumpets is the various intonation quirks. But Yamaha's are usually above average in that department. |
For C trumpet I would get a copy of your current mouthpiece and get it made with at least a 25 throat (24 is most common but we are seeing more 25's and less 23's) and an orchestral backbore (24). Various shops do this like Dillon and you can just call them up and order.
This will fix most problems most have with C trumpet. |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I pull the trigger and now have a great condition used yamaha 9445 Gen 1 Chicago C trumpet on the way. Can't wait |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations! May it bring you many years of wonderful music! |
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Trumpetingbynurture Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Posts: 898
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Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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The 9445 arrived yesterday so had several hours playing on it now. This horn is super!
Intonation is on par with any Bb I've played, sound is just excellent. Slotting is very forgiving and I don't feel so much like I'm 'walking a tightrope' while playing, especially for rapid double-tonguing passages. Resistance is comfortable, and response is immediate.
Definitely achieved what I wanted, which is that peace of mind that my previous C trumpet wasn't holding me back, which it seems it definitely was in certain areas. Expending a lot of energy and focus to stay on top of things like intonation and security, which can now be redirected towards singing with the instrument.
I have absolutely no regets! |
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Riojazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 1015 Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
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Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:06 am Post subject: |
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My Shires C was a prototype, large bore, no longer made, but I love it. It was so much better sounding and in tune than the used Bach 229 I had before. Since I don't play a C very often, I appreciate not having to worry so much about the intonation when I do. _________________ Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
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