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TheAidanAU Regular Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2021 Posts: 49 Location: Virginia, USA
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Smaller or bigger mouthpiece? |
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Hello everyone,
I was wondering if a smaller or bigger mouthpiece is better, or to be more precise, what is the difference between the two? I have around below average size lips, and can fit a 7c mouthpiece above and below the red of the lips fairly easily. I am thinking about getting a better trumpet than I have now (I currently have an Etude ETR-100.) possibly a Bach 190S37. Should I get a bigger or smaller mouthpiece, and should I keep my current trumpet? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Mouthpiece size and rim shape is chosen primarily by how it feels on your lips and teeth.
Does is hurt?
Does it feel 'too small' or 'too big'?
Does it give some support to your lips?
Does it make your lips feel like they are being pulled or pinched open or closed?
After all that, you need to decide if it helps you play better.
DON'T get a bigger diameter mouthpiece because it claims to give a 'bigger sound'. And don't get a smaller diameter because it claims to have wonderful high notes.
If your current mouthpiece feels OK, then it probably is fine.
YES, if you get a different trumpet keep the current one. You will want it for outdoor events and other situations where it might be 'at risk' of damage. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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giakara Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2003 Posts: 3832 Location: Greece
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Probably you use the 7C that comes with your trumpet , I suggest you to wait because the new Bach comes with a new Bach 7C that is much better than your current piece , try it and then you will decide.
Regards _________________ Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Smaller or bigger mouthpiece? |
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TheAidanAU wrote: | I was wondering if a smaller or bigger mouthpiece is better, or to be more precise, what is the difference between the two? I have around below average size lips, and can fit a 7c mouthpiece above and below the red of the lips fairly easily. |
A bigger mouthpiece is bigger. A smaller mouthpiece is smaller.
To be more precise, there is differences in mouthpiece diameter (width), rim width, rim shape, cup depth, cup shape and other variables I'm not mentioning.
One can say that the 3C is bigger than the 7C. One can say that, but it's a bit imprecise. The 3C is wider, but also shallower. It also has a less sharp rim, which I think is one reason it's tends to be more popular.
Lip size generally matters as much as the length of your pinky toe.
TheAidanAU wrote: | Should I get a bigger or smaller mouthpiece? |
Who knows? I suppose it couldn't hurt to try a 3C or 5C and see if it feels better or sounds better.
Blessing makes quality affordable mouthpieces, if you don't want to spring for the Bach. I like the Blessing 3C better than the currently produced Bach 3C anyway.
TheAidanAU wrote: | Should I keep my current trumpet? |
Yup. You'll get virtually nothing for selling it. If it functions and plays, then it's a serviceable backup for use in pep band or marching band. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Play the biggest rim you can comfortably. For many that's between a 1C to a 7c. I actually believe you should have enough cup depth to articulate freely. Many guys can accomplish this on shallower mouthpieces, but for me with a little more meat in my lips I need a C or B. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Without a teacher or mentor to guide you, your best bet would be to try several mpcs to see which seem to work best for you. Either change trumpets or change mpcs, don't try to do both at once. If you get a new horn, play it a while before changing mpcs. It would be easier to change mpcs first. You can do something as simple as borrowing a mpc from a friend or trying his at rehearsals for a few minutes. You should be able to tell something pretty quickly. If one size bigger seems to work, try the next bigger size you can find, etc. Ditto for smaller. It is not rocket science, it is just an experiment. Sometimes after a "honeymoon" a new mpc size does not seem as great after a while, but generally you will be able to figure out what works best by trialing. There are several mpc sellers who will send you out mpcs on approval and charge your card. If you return the mpc, they will refund the charge. Of course, this is more complicated than borrowing, but it is another route if you can't find what you need to try. You would, of course, be liable for the shipping charges...
PM me if you know what you want to try. Since I play in an 18mm ID mpc, there are a lot of smaller mpcs here that I don't use... _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1830 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Is the 7C mouthpiece that came with the Etude a Bach 7C or is it just marked 7C?
A Bach 7C is a nice sounding mouthpiece if you find the rim comfortable. Stock mouthpieces that come with a trumpet marked 7C may or may not be the same size and quality of a Bach.
Many of your questions can be resolved by a private teacher.
My suggestion - keep your present trumpet - spend your money on lessons.
After a few months of directed practice your teacher will be able to determine if a change in mouthpiece or instrument or both would help your progress. |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: |
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You can upgrade your mouthpiece without changing the specs. There are many brands and options for trumpet mouthpieces in the exactly the 7C range that are excellent. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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improver wrote: | Play the biggest rim you can comfortably. For many that's between a 1C to a 7c. I actually believe you should have enough cup depth to articulate freely. Many guys can accomplish this on shallower mouthpieces, but for me with a little more meat in my lips I need a C or B. |
I completely disagree that players should play the largest that they can. I hardily recommend the OP read the following which I think give a more nuanced criterion.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763&start=0 _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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It’s 100% a craps shoot. Whatever you choose will work for you or not. It will take some time, each time you switch just to acclimate.
I’m most comfortable on a flat rim, deep v, lightweight vintage cookie cutter _________________ a few different ones |
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B. Scriver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 1204 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Play the biggest mouthpiece you can play with accuracy and sound.
Play the smallest mouthpiece you can play with accuracy and sound.
Oh wait...that is the same mouthpiece.
It is like saying to wear the biggest shoes you can to run the 100m without tripping. No, wear the smallest shoes you can...you get it. Wear the shoes that fit.
Only intelligent play testing will tell the tale of the match between player, mouthpiece, and horn. Feel free to email me if you have questions on how to approach this, even if you do not want to purchase a GR Mouthpiece.
Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 11:24 am Post subject: |
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B. Scriver wrote: | Play the biggest mouthpiece you can play with accuracy and sound.
Play the smallest mouthpiece you can play with accuracy and sound.
Oh wait...that is the same mouthpiece.
Brian Scriver
www.grmouthpieces.com |
I agree with your statement in spirit but the smallest mouthpiece I can play is the Bach 20C and the largest is a Monette B2. Not the same mouthpiece. _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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The important criteria are those that give the best blend of:
endurance, accuracy, articulation, range, loudness control, sound, etc.
It's not a matter of 'what sort of works for a while'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Vincent Bach had plenty to say about this. I scanned his 1954 "Embouchure And Mouthpiece Manual", and there are essays in the front. Dig it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fusYorASK6VD_BRqlpievC5RDw5_uFHN/view?usp=sharing
TLDR, he advocated playing the biggest mouthpiece you could play well. But I assume he was principally addressing orchestral players?
He also said that amateurs (not much practice time) and school musicians would be fine on mid-sized mouthpieces in the 7C range. |
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PMonteiro Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Hudson Valley
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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B. Scriver wrote: | It is like saying to wear the biggest shoes you can to run the 100m without tripping. No, wear the smallest shoes you can...you get it. Wear the shoes that fit. |
To an extent this is true, but I've always thought the shoe size approach was funny. With size 11 feet, something like an 8 or a 15 physically will not fit me. However, although the 3 to 5 rim is my ideal mouthpiece range, I can play a 1 1/2 or a 7 quite well. Maybe not the most efficiently, but I can still sound good.
Moral of the story: many people can physically play a mouthpiece that's "too big" or "too small" for them, but they will get maximum efficiency by playing on the "right" size. Contrast with shoe size, which needs to be correct for the shoe to fit at all. _________________ YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Ah but can you wear any size 11? Some are bigger than others, the cut changes etc. Maybe a particular size 11 is great for you but bad for me. So you can see, the shoe anology does fit. You can equate the cut of the shoe to the rim. If it isn't right then it won't fit. Just as many rims might be fine, some are not. Like shoe brands. I can wear different brands but I look for a brand that I get along with. If I don't have any luck I'll try other brands. |
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PMonteiro Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Hudson Valley
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | Ah but can you wear any size 11? Some are bigger than others, the cut changes etc. Maybe a particular size 11 is great for you but bad for me. So you can see, the shoe anology does fit. You can equate the cut of the shoe to the rim. If it isn't right then it won't fit. Just as many rims might be fine, some are not. Like shoe brands. I can wear different brands but I look for a brand that I get along with. If I don't have any luck I'll try other brands. |
You're right about that. Each shoe size comes in different widths and materials, just as mouthpieces have different rims, cups, throats, etc. Those things need to be right in order for the mouthpiece to play optimally. But the average person could probably make a sound on a Bach 20C if they tried hard enough. On the other hand, most adults probably wouldn't even be able to get a size 2 shoe on their feet. Those are extreme examples, but the point is mouthpiece size doesn't have to be as rigid as shoe size. _________________ YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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The point that my teacher wanted to make is this. When you try on a pair of shoes, you know right away if they don't feel right. What do you do? You take them off and look for another pair. Same with mouthpieces. If you try one, and it feels bad, then you don't bother with it. If it feels OK, then you can see if it works for you, but if it feels bad right away, then you discard it. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | The point that my teacher wanted to make is this. When you try on a pair of shoes, you know right away if they don't feel right. What do you do? You take them off and look for another pair. Same with mouthpieces. If you try one, and it feels bad, then you don't bother with it. If it feels OK, then you can see if it works for you, but if it feels bad right away, then you discard it. |
The analogy with shoe size seems to me rather odd. Feet can be measured, lips are substantially more difficult to measure let alone jaw position, tongue movements, teeth formation and other variables.
Whether a mouthpiece feels bad or good on first trying says next to nothing.
Better say: that depends on the player. A very experienced (pro) player will know very soon whether a mouthpiece is right or wrong. For a beginner nobody knows, he or she may have embouchure deficiencies that make it impossible to judge a mouthpiece properly . In the middle are the advanced and intermediate players who will need ample time to judge a mouthpiece, let's say anything from six weeks. That's also the reason that I don't believe in the method to go to a shop and try there at random as many mouthpieces as possible.
One example of my own: I played a Yamaha 14B4 mp on trumpet and I decided to order a Yamaha 14F4 for flügel to be on the same size/rim.
When it arrived from Thomann I could not play it at all! Nothing, it completely blocked up! So I decided to pack it the coming Monday after the weekend and send it then back. In the meantime I tried it again and after two days it opened up and it gave me exact the sound and playing characteristics I was looking for. It turned out to get in time my favorite mouthpiece and I still use it on flügel, on an old cornet with the old Olds receiver and sometimes with a Bob Reeves adapter on trumpet. Lovely mouthpiece. I still don't know why I could not play it when it arrived but it is a fact. Later I changed my 14B4 for a 14D4 to get closer to the 14F4 in feel and I bought a 14E4 for cornet to replace my DW mp's.
Edit:
I found in my archive this quote from Rowuk about mouthpiece changes which is even more radical:
The same is true when we change mouthpieces. Our brain does not get what it expects, we have not built habits that correct for that and tension is the result. A pro needs 3 weeks (because they play a lot and are sensitive to small differences). Weaker players can need a year or perhaps NEVER get used to something else - because they do not have the muscle memory developed enough. |
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Aspeyrer Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2019 Posts: 106
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I ,respectfully, disagree with the previous poster, Delano and also with the quote from Rowan.
First impression are everything! You don’t buy a mouthpiece hoping you will one day adapt to it. Then, there would only be a one size fits all approach. It’s so much the opposite of that, that many pros play different mouthpieces on the same gigs, or change for each horn.
I’m sure we have all tested dozens of mouthpieces and found that some just don’t work right for us. That doesn’t mean everyone is playing 100% efficiently, of course.
Again, first impressions of a mouthpiece are paramount. Would you let someone tell you that you “must play this size” and keep at it through thick and thin, I hope not. All of the pros I know experiment a TON!
That addresses the quote about a pro needing 3 weeks to get used to a mouthpiece. I have never experienced this event in my life. I have seen many pros try a mouthpiece and play a concert that evening with the new piece. Or switch around pieces during rehearsals to see if they like the sound in the hall. Yes, things need time to adapt. However, that can be trained. I do believe in “honeymoon periods” when playing a new piece, but that wears off fairly quickly.
In summary; initial feeling is absolutely important. It does not take weeks to adapt to a new piece. Try various sizes larger and smaller, reasonably within your budget, of course. |
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