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Orban Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2018 Posts: 66
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:19 am Post subject: |
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That is definitely red rot. The tuning slide picture being one of the clearest examples ever posted here. The tell-tale indication is the black dot at the center which is the hole coming through.
The first is in the tuning slide, which being reversed, means the outer sleeve, and appears right at the point where the end of the leadpipe would be if the slide is pulled the normal 1/2 inch or so. The others are clustered just past the other end of the slide again on the lower outer sleeve. Have you pulled out the slide and checked both the end of the leadipe and the lower leg of the slide for further damage? (Because this suggests that you tuning slide has been taking a lot of acidic abuse).
You know the next question: how often to you clean this horn with soap, water & brush inside?
Which is followed by: how often do you play soon after eating?
It is a little surprising that the leadpipe is not showing rot closer to the receiver, but the tubing drawn that day to the diameter necessary for making the sleeve-sized components may have had issues with alloy quality. I there is no damage to any other tubing (leadpipe, lower slide leg, etc.), that is probably a contributing factor and those sections will need to be replaced (as it will just continue if its in the brass).
If, however, it is not isolated to that specific tubing stock, then you will need some lifestyle changes in how you handle the horn, and patches for what is already damaged. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: |
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"Out, damned spot!" (Macbeth, Act V, Scene I)
Spillover from the recent "Trumpet Names" thread in the "Horns" forum. (Sorry, I couldn't resist. ) |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3309 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:33 am Post subject: |
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It should be easy to thoroughly clean the inside of the tubing on the tuning slide. And also easy to shine a light. or a probe (perhaps a plastic straw) into the tubing to feel for roughness, etc.
My horns show similar blemishes, does ANYBODY have a horn that does not have spots that look like that? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Aspeyrer Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2019 Posts: 106
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Looks quite clearly like red rot.
Not usually common so quickly, but possible.
I’ve had issues with Yamaha finishes for quite while. Even on “artist model” horns they seem to have problems with plating (properly cleaning acid before plating). Personal anecdotal experience* |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 6:56 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | My horns show similar blemishes, does ANYBODY have a horn that does not have spots that look like that? |
All of them? I have many horns, and only a few show actual red rot. I have far more with pink acid staining on the surface, but those pictures were clearly red rot holes coming through from the inside with surface staining from zinc loss surrounding the tiny pore the acid is leeching through after dezincifying its way from the inside out.
If this is a cleaning issue, its easy to patch a couple spots and take better care of the horn. But if its bad brass, then those segments will just get worse and worse and have to be replaced. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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michael_bxl Regular Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Posts: 93 Location: Between Brussels and Ankara
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to head that. I also bought my 6335RC 1.5 years ago, in Belgium too but no red spot. _________________ Yamaha YTR-6335RC
Yamaha YFH-8310ZG |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | ......
My horns show similar blemishes, does ANYBODY have a horn that does not have spots that look like that? |
I sure do, five of them, including one made in 1979.🤔
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Though I am a Yamaha fan I have to admit that some Yamaha horns have a bad name for red rot, especially concerning the leadpipe and the tuning slide: YTR 6310, some of the early Artists, the Miyashiro horn and more.
My 6345 has a goldbrass leadpipe like more Yamaha's and that's with a reason.
Last edited by delano on Mon May 17, 2021 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I've never had an instrument with red rot. And I'm terrible about cleaning. Many of mine are over 100 years old. The youngest is 10 years old.
Why? _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | I've never had an instrument with red rot. And I'm terrible about cleaning. Many of mine are over 100 years old. The youngest is 10 years old.
Why? |
Here’s a guess:
It’s my understanding that red rot happens when trace amounts of hydrochloric acid in human saliva cause the zinc content to leech out of the brass. So it would seem to me, that different body chemistries would have differing effects on whether or not individual instruments develop red rot, ie, if you have little to no acid, less chance of red rot.
I suspect someone more knowledgeable might weigh in on this.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:03 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: |
My horns show similar blemishes, does ANYBODY have a horn that does not have spots that look like that? |
Yes. Horns without red rot:
Conn 22B 1924
Getzen Eterna 900LB 1990
Getzen Eterna 900LB Severinsen 1976
Antoine Courtois mod. Delmotte C 1970
Sold: Buesscher True Tone Custom 1927, Conn 22B 1927, Conn 22B 1954, Conn 12B 1956, Selmer Radial LB mid '70, Selmer K-Mod. Selmer Light Weight '60, King Super 20 1949, Olds Super 1949 and 1965, Bach 37-180 1978 and 1980, Julius Keilwerth Toneking Deluxe early '60, Getzen Eterna 900 several years, Getzen Capri several years.
Horns with red rot: Yamaha 6310 Z, Martin Imperial mid '60 _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:18 am Post subject: |
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@ Brad’s comment on saliva: I learnt from working with dentists a few years ago that different people have different saliva as far as the pH goes. While a lot of people are around 7.4, some are at about 6.6 or so. Don’t let you fool by the numbers, the pH scale is logarithmic and thus the change in one pH unit amounts to a factor 10 higher acid content. So yes, some may be related to saliva and maybe playing w/o brushing teeth.
To answer the other question: I have one horn with red rot - my 1980 Blessing Scholastic trumpet I got when I was 8 years old. Bought it from a woodwinds shop (nothing else around at the time) and they had no clue what it was when I went to talk to them after the horn had developed blisters all over the leadpipe. In spite of this it still plays fine.
My Bach 43 had also developed red rot in the leadpipe after ca. 30 years but that was fixed when I had it completely redone in 2015. No other cases of red rot have been spotted in the house _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Getzen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 Posts: 1924
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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It could be bad brass, body chemistry, lack of cleaning, or a combination of all three. Unfortunately, it happens and generally speaking, by the time you see it the damage is done.
Two body chemistry horror stories.
1) A local musician came in to try trumpets once. His sweat was so acidic, he had eaten about 2/3’s of the way through the outsides of his valve casings... on a ten year old trumpet. He had it re-silver plated every year to buy time.
2) A certain famous trumpeter we once worked with had such corrosive saliva that in the time it took to UPS prototype trumpets from Southrn California to Wisconsin every slide and piston would be seized in place. We’d open the box and put the horn right into a chem clean every time. Never seen anything like that.
I won’t even tell you some of the dirty horn stories. But we’ve seen some things. Horrible, horrible things. _________________ Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company
Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/
Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany
If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com. |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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If the original precipitating factors that caused the red rot are no longer present, will the red rot continue to progress anyway?
I ask because I once purchased a one year old trumpet that had some small spots of red rot. Even after owning and using it for over 15 years, it never got worse or changed in the slightest. |
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jimspeedjae Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2013 Posts: 165
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | I won’t even tell you some of the dirty horn stories. But we’ve seen some things. Horrible, horrible things. |
aww...come on, Brent. Spill the beans. Or get a Netflix documentary made about it |
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Orban Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2018 Posts: 66
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Thank you to the people who replied.
I take care of my instruments as it should be.
I still have a $ 200 trumpet of 6 years and another Yamaha ytr-5335g of 5 years old.
Both trumpets do not show any trace of Red Rot |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Orban wrote: | Thank you to the people who replied.
I take care of my instruments as it should be.
I still have a $ 200 trumpet of 6 years and another Yamaha ytr-5335g of 5 years old.
Both trumpets do not show any trace of Red Rot |
Well if the horn is being cleaned regularly, etc., and if there is no damage to any of the inner legs of the tuning slide assembly, then I would bet on needing to replace those outer sleeves. The spots are focused in the only places that the inner legs do not shield the outer sleeve, so logically that is where susceptible brass would fail first. The outer sleeves of the valve slides are also that diameter tubing, but typically the core of the horn is assembled separately from the leadpipe-tuning portion, so those are probably (hopefully) different stock.
If:
- The damage is limited to those two pieces of tubing (nothing anywhere else)
- The horn was purchased new
- Inspection with a bore scope will not show damage inside the leadpipe
Then the horn has a 5 year manufacturer warranty, and I would make a claim through the retailer.
But, that is only if all of those conditions are true. Anything else, and the warranty wont apply. The leadpipe will need to be undamaged to prove that the material involved is defective (it logically would otherwise bear the brunt of the problem), and exclusion (d) in the warranty is something they will no doubt try to apply. https://usa.yamaha.com/files/ocp/en_us/support/warranty/brass_woodwind/B_O_Wind_Instruments_Advantage_2010-07.pdf _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Orban Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2018 Posts: 66
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Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks all.
I will contact my dealer. |
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