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Sticking Valve; Keep or Sell?


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Playin4Fun
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Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 27
Location: Indianapolis

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had intermittent sticking issues with valves on a couple of trumpets with close tolerance valves and had tried repeated cleaning and several of the most highly recommended valve oils and still had issues. I tried Dennis Wick oil, as recommended by Jim Becker, and no more sticking.
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improver
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Joined: 14 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally solved my sticking valve problem. New springs.
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Jon Arnold
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Joined: 07 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want a possible inexpensive solution, try some Clean Stroke valve wash by Warburton.

https://warburton-usa.com/products/clean-stroke-valve-wash

I have used it several times and it definitely helps.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
I removed the 2nd valve slide and my second valve doesnt stick anymore. What does that mean? Andy

--------------------------------
1) one of the slide legs is just slightly too long, and sometimes touches the piston. Look for a 'bright spot' on the narrow rim of the legs.
If I saw that, I would use a flat emery board to carefully shorten the bright spot a tiny bit. And do a VERY THOROUGH job of washing and rinsing the slide.
Easy test would be to play the horn with the slide pulled 'just a hair' from fully seated.

2) the slide legs don't easily insert in the connectors - there might be enough 'sideways' torque to distort the casing. It would be best to have that adjusted by a technician who has the proper tools - should be quick and inexpensive, unless modification to the casing connector is required.
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Arnold wrote:
If you want a possible inexpensive solution, try some Clean Stroke valve wash by Warburton.

https://warburton-usa.com/products/clean-stroke-valve-wash

I have used it several times and it definitely helps.

I have never even heard of this. I'm probably going to give it a try - the valves on my Jupiter 1600I have always been tight, and recently I've had just a touch of sticking issue with one of them - can't even recall which one now because it's not frequent. I'd thought about taking it in for a chem clean but just hadn't gotten to it. This might be a good stop-gap solution.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a side note regarding this, if you're getting rid of a horn because of tight tolerances causing a valve to stick a little bit, you're (IMO) throwing the baby out with the bathwater. A better solution would be to take it to a tech and have the issue with the valve rectified.
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krell1960
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Joined: 20 Jan 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know i'm late to the game on this thread, but try Alisyn oil before you do anything else, i brought a horn to josh landress with the same issue, he tapped and straightenend, ect, but in the end nothing really changed. i believe the issue was really my finger down movement, anyway, i used alisyn oil for a couple of months and the problem went away, it's very thick, long story short, i went back to my regular oil, and the problem has never come back, who knows why, but maybe the viscosity of the thick oil gave some tolerance to my different key strokes and worked its way in, from the original owner. hey its worth a try for 5 bucks.

good luck,

tom
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Warburton product is very good. Another cleaning possibility is to use cheese cloth and 99.9% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol on the valves and in the casings. For the valves, apply a little alcohol to a piece of cheese cloth and wipe them down; for the casings, use a brass cleaning rod. This would be after you've cleaned the horn with very warm water and dishwashing liquid.

You might also invest in a Swab-Its (rifle) swab (with alcohol) to go down the bell (see link below), through the 1st valve casing, and through the connecting tube to the 2nd valve casing. Then with the 3rd slide removed, go through the 3rd valve lower leg, 3rd valve casing, and through the connecting tube to the 2nd valve casing. Then thoroughly rinse and repeat as needed. Gunk can hide up in those tubes connecting each valve casing. You would think that all of the trips to the brass techs would have remedied any hint of residual in those areas, but I have been surprised even after serious chem cleaning on certain horns that resulted in sticky valves.

SWAB-ITS .22cal/5.56mm Pull-Thru Gun Cleaning Bore-Whips Pull Through Cleaning Swabs

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SK4F2CY?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details

It is advertised as a "pull-through" whip, but I would recommend pushing it down the bell and through the 3rd slide and pulling it back out the same way. The opposite end of the swab is plastic and could lightly scratch the inside of a casing if you tried to pull it through.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing to consider adding to your cleaning routine:

Meinlschmidt Hydro-Jet Cleaning System

https://www.hornguys.com/products/meinlschmidt-hydro-jet-cleaning-system?_pos=4&_sid=01c4f7abe&_ss=r
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improver
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somebody recommended Tech oil. I just bought some and it's great.
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
Somebody recommended Tech oil. I just bought some and it's great.

I wondering if it was the same Tech Oil that I used for years on my Yamaha due it's valve issues. It appears to be.

http://www.brauninnovations.com/lubricant-oil

http://www.brauninnovations.com/lubricant-oil/tech-oil-ordering-info

https://repairmasterclass.com/tech-oil

Anyway, I always felt that my valves were very smooth, but very heavy when I used it. I felt like I was playing tuba rather than trumpet. One of my trumpet colleagues who also used it, used to cut it with a little bit of Al Cass. When I did that, the feel improved remarkably and it still functioned fine.

I mostly play my Benge and Radial, now, for which I use Yamaha Synthetic, but Tech Oil was good for what it was and squeezed life out of the worn valves of my Yamaha.
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improver
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is it was shipped from Utah. Its smooth and great
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That 'Tech oil' is interesting - are the 'contents' listed on the bottle, or any description of what type of oil it is? Petroleum distillate, bio, synthetic, etc.

The claim that it can last months before reapplication is surprising.
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going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
The claim that it can last months before reapplication is surprising.

I guess understanding what they mean when they say it “lasts months” is necessary to prove or disprove.

In my experience Al Cass would dry up and seize the valves if left for a week. However, Hetman’s doesn’t seem to dry out and the valves are still “usable” months later. (In addition to my regular oiling practices I always oil if the horn sits for a long period)

So does my experience equate to Hetmans “lasts months”? 🤷‍♂️
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Phoenix864
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Joined: 20 May 2019
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Location: Washington DC, US

PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for the additional advice. The horn is still with the tech, but if the valve continues sticking it sounds like there are a few other things to try before going for a full valve rebuild. Denis Wick Oil, Alisyn Oil, and Tech Oil - I'll have a look at trying those out if the sticking remains.

dstpt - thanks for pointing out that swab. That's the easiest way I've seen for cleaning the bell crook and valve connecting tubes. I've also picked up a Hydro-Jet, though still need to find an adapter to get it to work with my sink head.

If it comes down to it, a valve rebuild sounds like the way to go vs selling. Even if I choose to sell after rebuilding, it sounds like I could get some of that money back via a higher price due to 'better than new' valves.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Place your right hand on a flatbed scanner, or on a table with your cell phone directly above, and make an image. Look to see if the amount of tissue revealed on each side of each fingernail is the same. Arthritis and age in the last year have collaborated to begin twisting my middle flinger such that second now sticks if I do not concentrate on maintaining unusual and sometimes awkward hand position (depending on the horn - I use many) to keep the valves moving smoothly. It's me, not the horns. It's not like there was a lot of warning, it just abruptly happened.

FYI: valve rebuilds never have a 100% return on on cost at resale. They do however often make resale possible for lower priced horns.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
You could give Larson a call also, since he'd presumably know the history of the instrument and might have an idea of any issues with valve blocks or be able to give advice.

Other interventions:
-See if a classmate or teacher would play it for a week or two and give you their feedback, since it seems like others aren't getting the sticky valve.
-Try the "left hand playing" some to see if it's something with your own valve strike.

Since you've had it from September and there haven't been improvements, I'd be tempted to list it honestly, perhaps with a longer return period, and use your money for a good used Bach or Yamaha until you know what you want. What do you play on Bb? What will you use your C for?


All great points - I would start with the following simple procedure.

1) Get a wet chamois cloth (wet but not dripping wet) and use it to wipe off the piston surface; set the piston aside.
2) Make a tourniquet from the wet chamois cloth and insert it into the casing from the top. Rotate the tourniquet so that entire surface of the casing is in tight contact with wet chamois.
3) Continue feeding and rotating the tourniquet until the end of chamois appears from the bottom of the casing.
4) Continuing to rotate tourniquet, pull it gradually out of the casing. Depending on the size of chamois, it may be possible to pull it out from the bottom (smaller-sized chamois) or only from the top (larger-sized chamois).
5) Put 4-5 drops of oil onto the piston and spread the oil to completely cover the piston surface.
6) Add a couple more drops of oil onto the piston surface as you drop the piston into the casing.
If all goes well, the piston should effortlessly fall into the casing and lightly bounce once the spring is compressed.
7) Screw in the caps and repeat for the other pistons.

If the above procedure is unsuccessful, thoroughly clean the horn with a strong degreaser (Palmolive), water and a nylon brush. Some substances are notoriously strong at sticking to surfaces and are very difficult to remove.

After flushing out the horn with water, dry it out and repeat the above oiling procedure.

If still unsuccessful, giving a call to Larson Brasswerks might be the next best thing to do.
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
It is it was shipped from Utah. Its smooth and great

Yeah. I was originally concocted by a 3M Chemical Engineer in the Twin Cities. Looks like he retired and sold it to a guy in Utah.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
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improver
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would recommend this stuff. It's been a few days but it seems like you dont need to put much on and it lasts. I get the feel of a slick coating on the valves
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