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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Rwwilson wrote: |
I believe that there is a continuum of sound with these three instruments with considerable overlap. Solo players can pick the sound that they like. Ensemble players are required to conform. |
This is also exactly my point of view, forget the "true" cornet sound or the "too trumpetty' flügelsound, it's all part of the whole sound spectrum.
"True" sounds are only useful when necessary for particular reasons, like blending in a section.
And in fact I think even that is exaggerated, I remember photographs of a cornet in a trumpet section (like Bix with Paul Whiteman) and a rotary idem.
And Juan Tizol played valve trombone in Duke's trombone section for years, something I never experienced in my (trombone) bigband life. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: |
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I agree and have no problem playing jazz or funk on my rotary. Again, in a professional setting, you’ll need to match, I guess (but look at Claudio Roditi and Jimmy Owens). Otherwise I’d play what works best. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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Rwwilson wrote: | I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances. |
What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.
But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.
I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought... |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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joelf wrote: | Rwwilson wrote: | I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances. |
What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.
But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.
I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought... |
Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn! _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | joelf wrote: | Rwwilson wrote: | I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances. |
What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.
But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.
I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought... |
Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn! |
What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?... |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | joelf wrote: | Rwwilson wrote: | I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances. |
What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.
But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.
I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought... |
Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn! | Thanks.
It's not the money or anything but the fact that I'm not ready for another horn. I'm trying to master lip buzzes and long and pedal tones and playing some easier diatonic tunes---and not too well either. When the time's right I'll know.
But the deeper MP sounds good---once I get a bit more control of breath and intonation... |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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joelf wrote: | But the deeper MP sounds good---once I get a bit more control of breath and intonation... |
If you'd like an example of what a deep V mouthpiece can do, Trent Austin often uses different mouthpieces in his video's to show what an instrument can sound like with different mouthpieces.
joelf wrote: | What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?... |
Though I haven't played any, I'm quite a fan of the concept of hybrid horns. What I like most about them is that their designers are trying to break the mold and experiment in a 'ok, so what else can we do' fashion. |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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hibidogrulez wrote: | joelf wrote: | But the deeper MP sounds good---once I get a bit more control of breath and intonation... |
If you'd like an example of what a deep V mouthpiece can do, Trent Austin often uses different mouthpieces in his video's to show what an instrument can sound like with different mouthpieces. | I much prefer the 1st---not interested in a brassy, loud sound or acrobatics,
BTW, that guy can PLAY that horn! Beautiful sound & concept... |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 188 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: |
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I’ve purchased several vintage cornets and have found that they are usually less expensive than equivalent trumpets. Lately though I’ve seen horns listed for ridiculously high prices, often by sellers that have no idea of their real value. This being said, I don’t think the price on this horn is too far off. My main caution to a new buyer of vintage horns is make sure the valves aren’t damaged or too worn. Many sellers don’t show a picture of, or comment on the valves. A valve rebuild costs over $400. |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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joelf wrote: | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: | joelf wrote: | Rwwilson wrote: | I thought I would share a recent observation. I have a new to me Olds Recording cornet. It is old enough that it has the receiver that requires a larger shank mouthpiece. If not identical, the shank is enough similar that fluegelhorn mouthpieces fit it. I’ve been playing it with an ultra deep cup Wick 4FL. I’m amazed at how much this combination sounds like a fluegelhorn horn. In fact I think it could easily double as on in most circumstances. |
What I always had in mind to play was flugel. I was beguiled by the dark sound and as a guitarist (my main and lifelong axe--I'm a beginning brass player) I've achieved something close to that dark, full sound by using heavy strings; a higher action; one single-coil pickup; and simulating and air column with more LH playing, not picking every note.
But it was a good beginner's trumpet I ended up with---a nice, clean and cheap horn to get fundamentals together on. I was eyeing cornets all the while, b/c of the darker sound I favor. Years before I even imagined playing myself trumpet player friends were telling me that cornet and especially flugel were easier 'blows'.
I'm not changing anything until I can wipe my bottom on trumpet. And that'll realistically be a while, a GOOD while. But the thought of a lighter horn that, with the right MP and set up, would sound close to a flugelhorn---well, it's definitely food for thought... |
Several outfits - Monette, Curry, Austin Custom Brass, etc. - make very deep v "hybrid" mouthpieces for trumpet to give a pseudo-flugelhorn timbre. They can be fun to play around with, and certainly cheaper than another horn! |
What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?... |
I've heard it's amazing. As it should be for the price of a slightly used Honda Civic! _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 627 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Trent Austin & Austin Custom Brass is/are one of the best and most honest brass stores around. I don't think I've ever come across a bad word about them, and I've always been more than satisfied with my purchases from them. The low price, in my non-expert opinion, is a result of the stated condition of the horn (some compression loss in the valves, some plating wear, etc.), Conn made about a zillion of these 80As, and as a Conn cornet from before the mid-1950s, it needs a short shank cornet mouthpiece. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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austincustombrass Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2018 Posts: 246 Location: Kansas City, MO
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:50 am Post subject: |
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No "catch" just a great deal.
Call us if you have questions. 816-410-0826 _________________ As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.
It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.
Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:02 am Post subject: |
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austincustombrass wrote: |
No "catch" just a great deal.
Call us if you have questions. 816-410-0826 | Once I advance enough on trumpet (see above and in Fundamentals) and thus will be ready I will. YOU DA MAN!!... |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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joelf wrote: | What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?... |
Soul Eyes is one of my absolute favorite recordings. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Subtropical and Subpar wrote: |
Trent Austin & Austin Custom Brass is/are one of the best and most honest brass stores around. I don't think I've ever come across a bad word about them, and I've always been more than satisfied with my purchases from them. The low price, in my non-expert opinion, is a result of the stated condition of the horn (some compression loss in the valves, some plating wear, etc.), Conn made about a zillion of these 80As, and as a Conn cornet from before the mid-1950s, it needs a short shank cornet mouthpiece. |
I've got a similar vintage 80A. A couple of notes. The one pictured doesn't seem to have provision for the mechanism that simultaneously pulls the 1st and 3rd slides when you pull the main slide to "A". And as was mentioned it plays noticably better with the vintage mouthpiece. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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austincustombrass Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2018 Posts: 246 Location: Kansas City, MO
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Subtropical and Subpar wrote: |
Trent Austin & Austin Custom Brass is/are one of the best and most honest brass stores around. I don't think I've ever come across a bad word about them, and I've always been more than satisfied with my purchases from them. The low price, in my non-expert opinion, is a result of the stated condition of the horn (some compression loss in the valves, some plating wear, etc.), Conn made about a zillion of these 80As, and as a Conn cornet from before the mid-1950s, it needs a short shank cornet mouthpiece. |
I've got a similar vintage 80A. A couple of notes. The one pictured doesn't seem to have provision for the mechanism that simultaneously pulls the 1st and 3rd slides when you pull the main slide to "A". And as was mentioned it plays noticably better with the vintage mouthpiece. |
FYI they stopped making the 80A's with the mechanisms around 1939. _________________ As of 1/1/2022 ACB will no longer post online here nor monitor TH.
It's a shame how far this forum has fallen. If you need us call 816-410-0826 or email.
Cool Links here:
https://linktr.ee/austincustombrass |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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austincustombrass wrote: | FYI they stopped making the 80A's with the mechanisms around 1939. |
Mine must precede 1939 in that it has the attachment points for the mechanism though unfortunately, the mechanism is missing.
Plays nicely with the stock mouthpiece which doesn't agree with my chops. Plays just alright with a modern mouthpiece.
If I ever get motivated I'll be shopping for a better mouthpiece, new leadpipe, and if I can find or make it, the tuning mechanism. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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cheiden wrote: | joelf wrote: | What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?... |
Soul Eyes is one of my absolute favorite recordings. | If that's the one with Jimmy Heath & a big band on about half the tunes it's flugelhorn.
Or am I thinking of another title with 'Eyes'? Think so, but can't name it right now... |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Don’t need a fluegelhorn? |
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joelf wrote: | cheiden wrote: | joelf wrote: | What about the hybrid 'flumpet' Art Farmer helped design and played his last few years---any fans?... |
Soul Eyes is one of my absolute favorite recordings. | If that's the one with Jimmy Heath & a big band on about half the tunes it's flugelhorn.
Or am I thinking of another title with 'Eyes'? Think so, but can't name it right now... |
No big band on this one. From Allmusic...
"Art Farmer had switched to the flumpet (a customized hybrid of the fluegelhorn and the trumpet created especially for him) by the time of this 1991 concert, which was recorded at the Blue Note in Fukuoda, Japan. Accompanied by Geoff Keezer (a talented pianist heard near the very beginning of his professional career), bassist Kenny Davis, and drummer Lewis Nash, Farmer's playing is at its peak, with thoughtful almost compositional solos, as liner note writer Gene Lees infers. After a relaxed opening take of "Time on My Hands," the quartet cuts loose a bit with a brisk flight through "Will You Still be Mine." Mal Waldron's "Soul Eyes" has rarely packed as an emotional punch, while the waltzing "I'm Old Fashioned" is joyful. Art Farmer fans should definitely acquire this highly recommended (but now deleted) CD before it becomes too difficult to find." _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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