Ansetzen and double pedals

oj · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:07 am Post subject:

I just wanted to share something I learned about double pedals this weekend.

We were 4 guys from Norway that drove down to Denmark and had lessons with Jerry Callet.

I will write about that and post on my web soon, but here is a little thing that made me understand how to do the double pedals better.

Callet uses both Einsetzen (setting the rim on the lower rolled out lip like the low french horn player used to do - or like BE describe).

But, there is also something called Ansetzen - where you place the rim on the upper lip and drag it gently up. By that you get more of the red of the upper lip engaged in the vibration.

These two things and the forward pucker makes it possible to play double pedals very strong (like Andrew from Scotland told us he use to do)

Those that have heard Callet do double pedals, know that it is with a very strong and loud sound.

Thanks to Ansetzen, I also now know how to do it. As I understand it, it helps the upper lip to not collapse into the cup. You can use a small, shallow mouthpiece. Jerry had us try the Weril W46 mouthpiece with great result!

Ole

P.S.
I have a text in Norwegian about the lessons, but there are some pictures as well. One showing how Callet does the double pedal C.
Have a look here (scroll down):

http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/ntf/nye/callet_leksjoner/

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2004-03-17 06:09 ]

Bruce Lee · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:22 am Post subject:

Hi, Ole!

Yes... Jerry's double pedals are very loud! The BE "roll-out" double-pedals will yield the same results. It was during the time that Jerry started doing the double-pedals that he made the most significant improvements in his own embouchure. That was during his "Trumpet Yoga" days. I suppose that the double-pedals and OOOOHHHMMMMMMMMMMMM... are quite related. They are very relaxing, and also work well as a great warm-down.

Be sure to read pages 62-64 in the BE book!

The double-pedals serve a multitude of purposes. Using the "bunched chin", without corner tension, will help to break down the old muscles of a traditional embouchure, and help them to become restructured into the new/more efficient embouchure more quickly. When I am really feeling warmed up, and focused, my double-pedals make trombone players jealous. That same focus... open throat/relaxed/no-pressure approach... carried into the upper register will eventually bring great results.

Alas, a word of caution... doing too much of a good thing is not wise. A balanced routine will benefit a Balanced Embouchure!

BEst always,
Bruce
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Bruce Lee · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:43 am Post subject:

fox · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:34 am Post subject:

I had a couple of lessons with Jerry last year and he didn't mention anything about pedal tones. I read his story about how his playing turned around after doing them. So I was suprised to see that his new book didn't mention them either. At least they aren't listed as a secret. Now that I am doing BE, I can see how some of Jerome's ideas from his earlier books can help develop a new, more efficient feel. The next time I talk with him I'll have to ask him about pedals. For now, I'm glad that Jeff has included them. I can feel muscles moving that I never knew I had.

Doug

trumpet112002 · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:49 am Post subject:

What's the difference between Anhetzen double pedals and the BE Double Pedals. Is one more effective than the other? Just curious. Thanks
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mcamilleri · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:20 am Post subject:

I have always found the double-pedals much easier to do on a small, shallow mouthpiece, and it took about a year before I could play a strong low F# on a bach C cup. My Curry 620 M (smaller than a Schilke 6a4a) was the easiest to play double pedals on. I think the shallow cup stops the top lip from rolling out too much.

Now I can do them on any mouthpiece, all the way to F#, loud and phat, and developing that ability triggered off progress in other areas.

Michael
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germerv · Regular Member Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 85

Ole: I have your pictures of the Callet lessons in Denmark. I don't read Norwegian. Do you have an English version.

Thanks, germerv

oj · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:47 pm Post subject:

I will soon make an english version of the lessons with Jerry.

Ansetzen is German and means "setting on". Einsetzen means "setting in".

You combine both to get a better setting for the double pedals. If you set the rim on the top lip and drag it sligthly up, you get a more rolled out upper lip. As Jeff say in BE the double pedal postion creates a tiny opening (aperture) with a very good focus. I'm sure many of you that have been doing double pedals for some times have felt that you sometimes get a stronger more raspy sound.

The big difference between TCE and BE is that TCE don't use roll in. When you play high C or above you have this rolled out top lip. The wide forward tongue between the lips (like a wedge), help compressing the air. If you squeez the lips together in TCE, the sound shuts off. This also happen if you overblow.

Try the "Ansetzen" and see if it makes any difference on the double pedals. If not - just forget it.

Ole

HJ · Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:53 am Post subject:

Hi Ole,

I am very anxious to read your report on the Callet lessons. BUT....

The things I read here are a bit confusing, sorry to say so. I understand it is just a part of the story, and I remember that in september 2003 (when I visited the clinic in Germany) Jerry was experimenting even with 'einsetzen' on the red of the toplip. Wow, that sounded too weird for me. To jump into BE or TCE takes a bit of a twisted mind, but this was too much for me. The things you say about 'ansetzen' do not make any sense to me. Please do not be offended, you know I respect you and your vast knowledge of almost every trumpet method on earth.

One of the things that make Jeffs book a unique one is that there is not much room for confusion or going the wrong way. With Callet this is a totally different story. I've met him, too, and he is very good at explaining the weirdest things. So, yes, I believe that much of the tthings that Callet teaches are very true or helpful. But as soon as you want to write it down and explain it without Jerome watching over your shoulder, it tends to get misty and IMO dangerous. I saw and heard the spitbuzz. I know how to do it, but I do not teach it to anyone, because the confusion can get very big and I do not have the knowledge to prevent accidents (well, just go back to BE is maybe the best advice to give to anybody). And I read the Callet forum a lot, I think it is very interesting what especially Kyle has to say, but even he is not able to clear the mist on some subjects. This 'ansetzen' can be misunderstood so easily, that I would not recommend anyone to try this, unless they have seen Jerry do it.

Just a bit concerned, that's all. I would love to hear everything about the lessons.

BTW. the pictures are great. Nice to see the inventor himself do a roll-out.

Bert

germerv · Regular Member Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 85

What good are double pedals anyway? Eventhough Jerry's are loud (I've heard him play them), I wonder about their worth. Is it a relaxation thing, a way to demonstrate how the inner red upper lip works or what. Please let me know.
Thanks, germerv

Larrios · Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:54 am Post subject:

Germerv,

Get Jeff's book, or at least read around the forum more and check out his website at http://www.trumpetteacher.net.

Ko

Bruce Lee · Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:15 am Post subject:

germerv,

Please take a look at my post on this thread. I've commented on the benefits of double-pedals.

Best always,
Bruce
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Please contact me for BE Lessons

oj · Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:35 am Post subject:

Bert,

I sent you a private mail, but I will address some of it here.

If you read about the old horn playing technique, you will see that Ansetzen ("setting on", or "setting against") was the name for the high note embouchure. It was often trumpet players converted to horn, or (like Gottfried Reiche) versatile players that could play both trumpet and horn.

The Einsetzen was the low note embouchure.

You either played low or high. In the Romantic era, composer started writing music for horn that used the whole range - for "corno chromatique".

Adieu Einsetzen and Ansetzen -- enter Farkas and followers...

Then in 1970 Callet "re-discovered" this old technique. As you know Bert (and Jeff), he tried to explain his findings in Trumpet Yoga. The good thing from this book (double pedals) is part of BE now .

As I see it now, the horn players in the Romantic era was right - Einsetzen and Ansetzen does not go together. In this respect Farkas is also right in a way.

What is it that makes it work when Callet do it - or Civiletti (with great musical result)?

Answer: The "T" in TCE - the tongue!

When you use the tongue as part of the vibration, as a "compressor" and as a support, you can play on the inner red (on top lip) from double pedal and up as high as you can.

I have been doing R.O. #4 with this method for the last week. I can do it with greater volum on higher notes than I could with roll-in. What I like is the sound - and on horn (both french and alto) I have been using it as well.

BUT - yes there is a great BUT. Don't fool around with this!

Keep using BE as the basic for what you do!
If you want to know TCE you need to get lessons from Jerry.

Ole

[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2004-03-19 07:51 ]

HJ · Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:58 am Post subject:

Ole,

Good advice, and what a nice perspective to say that the tongue in TCE actually connects the ansetzen and einsetzen (those are my words, but that is how I understand it). I see what you mean, or what Jerry means.
When I read Trumpet Yoga I also understood that the lips do not really roll in ( it is more a kind of grip against the tongue) and even in this early stage he is already experimenting with this ansetzen. When he wants you to drag the rolled out feeling into the normal range he says to keep the lips rolled out ( so not as in BE keeping the RO feel). I told you in a private mail that I tried this once (or was it to Jeff that I told him my experiment with T Y ?) and it just triggered all the bad habits from the past. It felt very, very wrong, and not as a possible means to an end.

On the clinic in Germany he showed a picture of a famous French horn player ( I forgot the poor mans' name...) who played great with his mpc totally in the red of his top lip. Jerry told us he was experimenting with this, but it did not sound great. I also tried this once and like you said: don't fool around with this!!!!
I think if you are interested in Jerry's teachings I think you definitely should do it with him.

Bert

oj · Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:18 am Post subject:

Bert,

The photo was of Walter Holy, a great German trumpeter (sideman to Helmut Schneidewind).

Holy played the Brandenburg 2 on a replica of the Reiche coiled trumpet (the one you can see on the Hausmann painting in Leipzig). When he did this, he used this "other" embouchure. In his regular playing he did not.

Perhaps we should call this slight dragging of the upper lip "rabbitting"

(It is not strictly "Ansetzen" as described by the old horn school.)

Ole