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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:37 pm Post subject: Nonmetallic straight mutes |
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OK, as I just said in another thread - I keep learning all things trumpet. The newest thing I learned is that metal mutes were not really available until the 1960s. So, if I were to play in in an orchestra which sometimes plays 1920s and 1930s music, would a fiber or wood mute be more appropriate?
I have found Peter Gane, Warburton, Pöltl, Tools4Winds, and a few others make wood, fiber, wood fiber, or even plastic mutes.
Any recommendations and experience with any of those?
The instrument to go with the mute would be the Schmidt rotary in the signature. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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jazzjezz Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2010 Posts: 108 Location: SE UK
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Humes & Berg will be the most likely to find a match in a section.
The Peter Game ones are great mutes - and handmade by the nicest guy too!
I also have a soft spot for Facet Mutes. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:19 am Post subject: |
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The question of blending in the section is not an issue at the moment because we will all need new mutes and I hope to convince my two colleagues to buy a matching set. So we may not need to go with H&B (which are not my favorites based on past experiences).
Aren’t the Facet mutes heavy-ish compared to the others? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Metal mutes were used in the 20's. Pretty often they were sold with the trumpet, like mouthpieces are. Conn trumpets from the 10's and 20's for example, they could be had with a factory metal mute properly placed in the case in its special holder, just like the mouthpiece.
So depending on what kind of 20's music you're talking about, a metal mute could be the "correct" choice.
(My favorite straight mute is a metal mute with an aluminum top and a brass bottom that I believe is even older, made by Lamouret in Paris, 173 Rue de Bagnolet. Francois Lamouret was a solo cornet player who died on the stage in 1925 at the age of 42. His brother Henri was a trumpeter and a pilot, who left France in 1918 to teach young pilots in the USA. Anyway, the company was sold in 1924 so my mute must be older than that.) |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:52 am Post subject: |
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@krax: See that’s what I thought as well. I was thinking Dixieland/early jazz where metal mutes must have been in use even around 1900. I read the statement about the metal mutes on some orchestral website recently but can’t remember where.
Now we would use them in 1920s/30s „Salonorchester“ type music, think Paul Whiteman with strings and occasionally a singer. We can’t be too loud because our strings are not very strong. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2047 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 am Post subject: |
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If you are looking for a vintage Ray Robinson or Shastock sound, the Roger Ingram MuteMeister fiber straight mute, made in collaboration with Warburton, is a nice option.
I have not tried the new Huber fiber straight mute, but suspect it comes pretty close to that same sound.
The Warburton Woody mutes are terrific, and some of them come close to the Stastock straight mute sound.
Woodstop makes a wood straight mute that comes closer to the Ray Robinson -- definitely not exact, but along those lines. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Found it, actually it was on the MuteMeister page: „metal mutes did not become commonplace until the 1960s“. Here is the link: http://mutemeister.com/NewMutes.html
I presume I overinterpreted this a little and started thinking there were no metal mutes at all - which does not make a whole lot of sense. So we got that clarified. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: |
Now we would use them in 1920s/30s „Salonorchester“ type music, think Paul Whiteman with strings and occasionally a singer. We can’t be too loud because our strings are not very strong. |
Like the sound of Max Raabe and the Palast Orchester? To my ears, some metal combination would sound the best. I really like the mix of brass and aluminum as I said above, soft, yet with an edge. At least wooden straight mutes are louder, not sure they would make any room for the violins. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, a little bit like Max Raabe, just larger. We are around 40 people and have 3 trumpets, little low brass, a lot of saxophones, clarinets, and flutes. About 12, 13 strings, piano, drums …
I do like the look of the JoRal aluminum/brass straight mute, so maybe I’ll order a few metal ones and a few non metal ones and buy those that fit best. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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The Denis Wick plastic straight mute is interesting. Somewhat thin plastic with a sound that reminds me of the old Shastock straight with a maple resonator.
It's a lively sound but not metallic. |
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bobmiller1969 Regular Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2009 Posts: 12 Location: Mays Landing, New Jersey
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:19 am Post subject: |
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If you can get your hands on some early Shastock straight mutes, they sound the best, IMHO. Easy restore job too, if it's your first time. Price is going up on these on eBay/Reverb, but can't hurt to send the seller an offer. Most of the ones I see have been listed for a while.
I owned an Ingram Mutemeister cup for a bit (never tried the straight, but I'd assume it's similar.) I'm still skeptical about all of these 3D printed mutes. It had a bit of a plastic sound to it, even with the wooden resonator. -Bob _________________ Bob Miller
1969 Selmer DeVille - ACB TA1
(60's?) Couesnon Paris Flugelhorn - ACB TA1MDF
buddhabellymuteco@gmail.com
https://www.buddhabellymuteco.com |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:03 am Post subject: |
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If folks are looking for a non-metallic mute that sounds soft you can't overlook the Trumcor Lyric Straight.
https://www.trumcor.com/product/lyric
Not sure if it's the right sound for music from the 20's or 30's. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:04 am Post subject: |
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OK, quite some suggestions here. Original Shastock and what not mutes are essentially impossible to get over here, so that would be a long shot. I finally settled on the Peter Gane straight, like it much better than the Wick.
I also have been looking into the the Gane bucket and the Ingram cup mute …
Thanks for all the suggestions. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1833 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Here is a 1932 King catalog #5 - see page 47 for pictures of metal mutes and the old Shastocks.
https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/82
By the way - you might want to try the Denis Wick plastic straight mute. Often mis-labled as a "fiber" mute. It is a thin resonate plastic not like the thick black ones Bach sells.
https://www.deniswick.com/product/synthetic-straight-mute-for-bb-trumpetcornet/
Reminds me of the Shastock straight with maple resonator. If you want to reduce the brightness - some duct tape on large end of the mute or cut some felt rings to slip over the mute. (Back in the day a Shastock straight mute with maple resonator and felt ring was popular.)
Oh - it's under $15 some places
[I see I already commented on this in July. Well at least I'm consistent.] |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Well, I have not played that Wick but Wick and I have not been a good combination in the past, regardless of what it was, mouthpieces, mutes, etc, sold every single bit again. It may just be me, but Wick just does not seem to click with me. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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bobmiller1969 Regular Member
Joined: 04 Jan 2009 Posts: 12 Location: Mays Landing, New Jersey
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | OK, quite some suggestions here. Original Shastock and what not mutes are essentially impossible to get over here, so that would be a long shot. I finally settled on the Peter Gane straight, like it much better than the Wick.
I also have been looking into the the Gane bucket and the Ingram cup mute …
Thanks for all the suggestions. |
The Peter Gane Bucket is fantastic! I had a bit of trouble with it falling out of the bell unless I really jam it in there good. I'll probably replace the small corks with neoprene when I have a chance. -Bob _________________ Bob Miller
1969 Selmer DeVille - ACB TA1
(60's?) Couesnon Paris Flugelhorn - ACB TA1MDF
buddhabellymuteco@gmail.com
https://www.buddhabellymuteco.com |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Metal mutes actually predominated in early jazz. Listen to Joe Oliver's Dippermouth Blues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o41DMsV5MFA
Early players were obsessed with making their horns sound like farm animals. Check out the ODJB's Barnyard Blues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySGxRlIeT7c
And, of course, Clyde McCoy made recording history with his Sugar Blues for which he used a metal ice cream dish as a plunger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjemjB3kgAM _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Dave_3 Regular Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2020 Posts: 64 Location: Texas
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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@jhatpro: yeah, that’s what I always thought, too. Just look at the early cornets and trumpets, they often came with a metal pixie or straight - which is why I was a little astonished by the statement about the non metallic mutes on the website I mentioned above.
In spite of this I really like the Gane straight. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2054 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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@jhatpro: yeah, that’s what I always thought, too. Just look at the early cornets and trumpets, they often came with a metal pixie or straight - which is why I was a little astonished by the statement about the non metallic mutes on the website I mentioned above.
In spite of this I really like the Gane straight. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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