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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: |
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I've looked at the photos now. It looks like there's a small dent in the side of the bell a little forward of the 3rd valve but that's not a big deal, it can be taken out by a qualified tech in under 10 minutes, so I'm not factoring that into the value.
The engraving around the "Martin Committee" bell stamp is unusual. I haven't seen that before.
How the silver plating will clean up, especially inside the bell, is a mystery. If it doesn't clean up well that would affect the value.
Of course the mechanics (valve compression, valve action, etc.) and internal condition (any red rot issues) are an important factor and those can be evaluated properly only with a hands-on inspection.
I'll stay with my opinion that $3,000 of insurance will easily cover the reasonably expected value of the horn. To me, assuming the horn cleans up well, the mechanics are good and there are no internal condition issues, this is a $2,000 to $2,500 horn at most. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5228 Location: ca.
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The first ones as with many of the great brands were the best, as with Olds and Bach the earlier the better. 1946 was the first of the Committees like yours. Very nice. _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8336 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Nice! Sadly, far out of my price range.
Silver might be a markdown for some, but it would a bonus for me. I don't get along with raw brass and lacquer of that era doesn't hold up well.
improver wrote: | Sell it, buyva Bach 37. It's worth 3500 in that condition |
"I like to trade in this '57 Corvette for that new Malibu in the corner...." _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Don't polish it. You have a very complete kit with the original case, warranty card, etc. This makes it very attractive to genuine collectors. I would have it cleaned by someone who works with vintage horns, though. Your comment about the horn being smelly tells me that it was "put away wet" and probably has mold throughout it. I would not try this yourself, since you are unfamiliar with brass instruments and risk damaging the horn.
There are two different systems professionals use to clean a horn. One is a chemical solution, the other is an ultrasonic bath. Of course, there is the option of using a good dish soap in warm water, which may be the best option for your horn since no one knows the condition of the brass, at this point.
Do the research. Make decisions over time. This is an heirloom. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Martin Committee questions |
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Hammbone wrote: |
I need advice on how to proceed. First things first, I'd like to have it appraised. What's it worth? (not to sell, but for insurance purposes).
Secondly, what do we do with it? Should we have it tuned up and polished? Should we leave it in the case and not play it?
Thanks. |
I have a lacquer #2 Committee just a little older than yours. Wonderful, smooth playing instrument.
Your answers, in my opinion:
1) $1500 market value. $2500-3000 for insurance. $100,000+ as your great grandfather's sweetheart. (If he was a player, that's likely how he felt about it.)
2) Take it to one of the best pros listed above. Not to any old music store. It needs thorough interior cleaning, oiling, valve check. Careful with cosmetics...It's OK to show your age. But, gentle professional polishing of the silver might be OK. Let the pro see it first.
Your son should only play it under supervision. He's too young to manage a $100,000 trumpet. If you only care about market value, sell it and get him a $1000 modern used horn.
Maybe you could learn to play.....Nice homage to your gr.grandfather.
My father played cornet in the early '30s. I wish I had his horn _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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Hammbone New Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2021 Posts: 8 Location: midwest
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:34 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | ...You have a very complete kit with the original case, warranty card, etc. This makes it very attractive to genuine collectors....
Do the research. Make decisions over time. This is an heirloom. |
That's what I was wondering. I see these horns on eBay and Reverb with insane pricing, but most don't have the original case (mine's impeccable btw) or warranty cards. This is like having a numbers-matching classic car - that has to drive the value up. (I saw a beat-up case listed for $550 by itself).
I reached out to a local music store that has multiple locations here in Iowa. The guy I talked to is a trumpet player himself. Once I told him what I had he said not to take it to their repair shop and to find a shop that has experience with vintage horns. He referred me to a place in Omaha, NE (4hr drive for me). I called and spoke to the repair tech there. He seemed like he knew what he was talking about and very friendly. I'm thinking of arranging a trip to go see him and have him evaluate the horn. Perhaps leave it with him to properly clean, polish, repair to playing condition. _________________ -Hammbone |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Hammbone wrote: | shofarguy wrote: | ...You have a very complete kit with the original case, warranty card, etc. This makes it very attractive to genuine collectors....
Do the research. Make decisions over time. This is an heirloom. |
That's what I was wondering. I see these horns on eBay and Reverb with insane pricing, but most don't have the original case (mine's impeccable btw) or warranty cards. This is like having a numbers-matching classic car - that has to drive the value up. (I saw a beat-up case listed for $550 by itself).
I reached out to a local music store that has multiple locations here in Iowa. The guy I talked to is a trumpet player himself. Once I told him what I had he said not to take it to their repair shop and to find a shop that has experience with vintage horns. He referred me to a place in Omaha, NE (4hr drive for me). I called and spoke to the repair tech there. He seemed like he knew what he was talking about and very friendly. I'm thinking of arranging a trip to go see him and have him evaluate the horn. Perhaps leave it with him to properly clean, polish, repair to playing condition. |
I can recommend Mike Thompson in Omaha as someone you can consult with. He is owner of Thompson music. |
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Dr. Manhattan Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jul 2016 Posts: 102 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: Martin Committee Trumpet Questions |
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You can also reach out Landress Brass as he does a lot of work on Martins and knows these horns very well. _________________ Several Trumpets and Flugelhorns!
Trying to thin the small herd!! |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 697 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, you have to separate the collector value and the player value, in my experience. A hard-core player honestly doesn't want the old case or accessories or paperwork. While your horn does look nice, it isn't a museum grade horn, that would push it high on the collector value. It does show light wear. And until a pro repairman appraises the innards and mechanics (or a discriminating pro player) you don't know it's real potential. I am not arguing against the previous posts, but you need to realize that there are at least 2 disparate criteria in horn appraisal.
Also, someone commented that the Deluxe Committe might be more valuable. I disagree, since much of the Committee's mystique is thought to be due to a softer grade of brass. The Deluxe model has a lot more nickel in critical areas and I have read opinions that the nickel tightens slotting and affects the tone. For foll disclosure, I should reveal that I call myself a "player-collector" since I do collect LOTS of horns, but I do it to enjoy the variety of playing styles. And I am not really a Committee guy, although I do have a Martin Custom Committee, which seems not to be either "dark" or "smokey" (whatever that means).
And in spite of the previous posts about taking the horn to a college trumpet teacher, I would never leave it with a teacher. I know of many college professors and instructors who will think nothing of keeping a horn, or talking it down so you will take a trade down. Go to a reputable shop. And get a complete document identifying what you are leaving there.
Whether collectible or player, it is an heirloom with real world value. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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The 'new' Martin Committee was brought up. Has anyone here played it? If so, what are your thoughts? |
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Hammbone New Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2021 Posts: 8 Location: midwest
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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OP here. The journey thus far has been quite educational. I've done tons of reading, watched a lot of YouTube, talked to several players, repairmen, shops, etc. Finally, I found an older gentleman who's been working on horns for over 50yrs, and he did a knock out job on my Committee. I was surprised to learn that the inside of the bell is gold plated. I have yet to find any photos online of another Committee like this one.
Check it out: http://imgur.com/a/ly7VRDQ
Let me know your thoughts. I'm still interested in knowing its value, yet part of me doesn't care anymore. I'm just happy to have inherited such a nice horn and having found such a fantastic technician! _________________ -Hammbone |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: |
While I think it is great that family is attempting to resurrect the Martin company, I personally would wait for the dust to settle and the unsolicited reviews to happen before purchasing what is intended to be a clone of the original. |
Actually, the family had nothing to do with the Committee models - the last Martin was gone in 1923, a decade and a half earlier. Also, BAC did not attempt to clone a Committee from one of the earlier periods for Martin Brasswind, they developed a new design incorporating features deemed significant in prior Committees
LittleRusty wrote: | Back to our regularly scheduled thread… |
_________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hammbone wrote: | OP here. ... I was surprised to learn that the inside of the bell is gold plated. I have yet to find any photos online of another Committee like this one. ! |
That looks like a light bead blast finish for the satin silver and 24K gold in the bell flare. Those finishes were not available in the 1940s, so that finish is not original. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5228 Location: ca.
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Hammbone wrote: | OP here. ... I was surprised to learn that the inside of the bell is gold plated. I have yet to find any photos online of another Committee like this one. ! |
That looks like a light bead blast finish for the satin silver and 24K gold in the bell flare. Those finishes were not available in the 1940s, so that finish is not original. |
Kinda looks like "the Bach shop" guy that used to do horns like that 6-9 years ago. Not good if that is the case. No or little prep, light coating of whatever... _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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Hammbone New Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2021 Posts: 8 Location: midwest
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:49 am Post subject: |
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[quote="A.N.A.Mendez"] OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
Kinda looks like "the Bach shop" guy that used to do horns like that 6-9 years ago. Not good if that is the case. No or little prep, light coating of whatever... |
I guarantee this is NOT the case!
My great-grandfather purchased this in the mid 1950's and passed in 1998. Its been in the closet of my aunts farm house since, up until until 2 months ago. I also spoke to my grandmother last night (daughter of original owner). Her dad lived through the great depression and was not one to spend an extra dime on something if he didn't have to. So there's no way he would've paid to have it refinished. He was in his 40's when he purchased it in the 1950's, and he bought used from someone in their small town in SE Iowa.
Knowing this, and given the timing, I'm hard pressed to believe it was ever refinished. _________________ -Hammbone |
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Hammbone New Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2021 Posts: 8 Location: midwest
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:03 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
That looks like a light bead blast finish for the satin silver and 24K gold in the bell flare. Those finishes were not available in the 1940s, so that finish is not original. |
Really? You "know" this? Did you work in the Martin factory in 1946? I find this highly unlikely. See my comments above. _________________ -Hammbone |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:26 am Post subject: |
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The 1948 Martin catalogue at saxophone.org clearly says that the Committee was available "finished in lacquered brass, silver with gold bell and burnished gold". As your warranty card states, this was their number 2 finish. |
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Hammbone New Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2021 Posts: 8 Location: midwest
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:11 am Post subject: |
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krax wrote: | The 1948 Martin catalogue at saxophone.org clearly says that the Committee was available "finished in lacquered brass, silver with gold bell and burnished gold". As your warranty card states, this was their number 2 finish. |
Thank you! _________________ -Hammbone |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Hammbone wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
That looks like a light bead blast finish for the satin silver and 24K gold in the bell flare. Those finishes were not available in the 1940s, so that finish is not original. |
Really? You "know" this? Did you work in the Martin factory in 1946? I find this highly unlikely. See my comments above. |
Fair enough - poor choice of words. Let me rephrase: The finish shown in your photos is inconsistent with what was available at the time.
In the image below, a portion of your bell is on the left, and a portion of the bell of a 1946 large bore Committee is on the right (source: worthpoint). The texture on your horn appears to be a heavy texture, with characteristic hooking of the impact lines, consistent with glass bead work reshaping the surface of the brass itself with plating over the top - though it is possible some other process could be at work. The texture on the right is a soft frosting of the plating itself.
This look began as a matter of just not burnishing the heavy plating in the 19th century, but as plating improved such that polished brass plated out as polished silver, makers wanting to recapture the two-tone look that at one point had been a cost savings, began abrading the thick plating with ultra-fine media.
By the 1960s, triple-plating was a thing of the past, and silver plating such as what Schilke studied to conclude it had no acoustic impact, had thinned to just a few microns. Any abrading of that would expose brass, thus ending the textured finish for a while.
Today, while plating is thin, the textured look is created, albeit far more heavily than the historic inspiration, by applying plating over brass textured more heavily by glass bead - which only came about in the 60s or 70s, and for use on instruments after the retro craze of the 80s.
It may be an illusion I suppose, but look for yourself at the images.
The gold in the bell could admittedly be just how the photo colorizes on my screen. Martin gold plating, like everyone's, was pretty light - say 12K to 14K in the pre-WWII window. By 1955, based on 3 samples, it had only improved (reduced impurities in the process) to something less than 18K in color (and still was prone to a lot of tarnish of the impurities).
_________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Hammbone wrote: | . . . Finally, I found an older gentleman who's been working on horns for over 50yrs, and he did a knock out job on my Committee. . . . I'm still interested in knowing its value . . . I'm just happy . . . having found such a fantastic technician! |
What does your fantastic technician say about your horn's originality and value? With 50 years of experience, he ought to have a reasonably well-informed opinion, and he has had the added benefit of holding the horn in his hands and viewing it up close. |
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