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F.E. Olds Nut Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 343 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Random musings:
I lusted after a Martin Committee for years.
In high school I chanced upon a #3 Deluxe model for nearly no money, which I ended up selling to pay for my first Schilke trumpet. I kicked myself for years about selling it, although the Schilke was a much better fit and ended up being my main horn throughout college.
Fast forward to 2021, and I had to the opportunity to purchase a #2 Deluxe model with a piston rebuild. Since graduating, I've sense moved to more commercial and big band work, and not as much small group jazz. I figured it would be a treat for myself and ended up buying it on a whim. Boy, was I in for a rude awakening. In those years since high school I have been spoiled on modern trumpets with modern intonation, and the Martin was almost unplayable for me. While I love the sound, that sound was pretty incompatible for the work I was doing, and I actually hurt myself playing it on a horn section date trying to compensate for the narrow tonal palette and the intonation. I took it to a couple jazz jam sessions hoping it would fit in there, but still wasn't *it* for me. I just traded it to someone who I hope will appreciate it more and I did. And I'm back on my Schilke. Funny how things go... _________________ Del Quadro "The Mother" |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:21 am Post subject: |
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A.N.A.Mendez wrote: | For me, I've owned 3 over the years, different times. It's the horn I love to play by myself, to express.... Sit in a corner and noodle around. They bend notes so well, different "color" to the sound. Playing blues as you are in that mood. That is what I love about them. |
And there (maybe…sort of….?) is the answer to the question. I think it’s entirely possible that the sound that’s possible (and I believe we sometimes negate how much the player and mouthpiece factors in) to get out of the Committee isn’t as practical, or maybe I should say “all around useful” (?) as many other horns. I’ve never played one. But for me, the sound that I THINK a Committee can produce would not work for what I do, I would either be buried in the sound mix, or kill myself trying to balance with the rest of the band, or both. And I don’t know if a Committee would suit me much better if I was playing more legit styles either. Would it “blend” in a section of Bach and Yamahas? But then, is “blend” as important as some believe? I can’t really remember anyone mentioning that back in prehistoric times, when I was in college. Of course back then, even as a music major, most of us were fortunate to have just ONE Bb, and if someone had said we needed to blend better, we would have tried to find a way to make whatever equipment we were using do that.
None of which are reasons NOT to have one, they’re just MY reasons not to.
Edit: F.E.Olds comments above this post sound like what I THINK my experience might be with a Committee, if I tried one.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5227 Location: ca.
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:56 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | A.N.A.Mendez wrote: | Slightly off topic but....
I found out later those Olds Silver Supers from that time period were monsters.(1979-81) |
Olds was liquidated in 1979, but I am assuming you are talking about either an S-12 Super Ultrasonic (which I didn't realize was ever offered in other than lacquer - so very few were sold), or an Olds SuperStar, which also used an Ultrsonic (explosively molded) bell, had the interchangeable minimally constrictive valves, I think came standard in silver, and was top-of-the-line for Olds - and a killer commercial horn (unfortunately only built in their last few years in business).
The Super Ultrasonic seemingly was not popular (and all I have ever heard previously was how Olds fans did not like them as well as earlier Supers), while the SuperStar just wasn't around long enough to get noticed or I think would have been huge for them. |
Yes, I meant 69-71 _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: |
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A.N.A.Mendez wrote: | Yes, I meant 69-71 |
ah, yes - that's a difference. Last of the second generation Supers. I have an S-10 like that in raw brass and got a lot of compliments on the tone the one time I used it. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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chapahi Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 1467 Location: Stuttgart, Germany
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: The Committee hype |
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kehaulani wrote: |
So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. |
Which sounds better to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhNH2P1YDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeKGrSFLBvk
Miles Davis is always brought up in the Committee discussion but as far as I can see, based on photos and album covers, he's always playing a new horn. Does this mean he's playing an RNC era committee? _________________ Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:13 pm Post subject: Re: The Committee hype |
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chapahi wrote: | kehaulani wrote: |
So I close with this question, again. Why do so many TH-ers play Bachs, Getzens, Yamahas, Schilkes etc. and not Committees if they're so special? Thanks. |
Which sounds better to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhNH2P1YDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeKGrSFLBvk
Miles Davis is always brought up in the Committee discussion but as far as I can see, based on photos and album covers, he's always playing a new horn. Does this mean he's playing an RNC era committee? |
They both sound like Steve Dillard.
As for Miles, it's my understanding that he had an arrangement throughout his career playing a Martin Committee for Martin Committee trumpets to be built to his liking. There are many photos of him playing later era Martin Committee trumpets that were a different design from the classic Martin Committee trumpets from the 1940's and 1950's. Certainly we can reasonably assume that these later era Martin Committee trumpets were made specifically for him and were approved by him. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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My teacher, a seasoned jazz and commercial pro, said he of course wanted a Committee but when he finally got to try one he decided to stick with a modern horn because it was so hard to play the MC in tune. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 614 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:18 am Post subject: |
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I find it interesting that the Committee thread and a couple X-13 threads are proving durable simultaneously.
I would love to stumble across a Committee serendipitously, like our recent poster whose great-grandfather had one. But I hesitate to pay collector prices for one.
I am a comeback hack who just loves to play. 99.9% of my playing is for me alone. I have thus far in my comeback bought solid horns at value prices; an Eterna Classic from Music & Arts with double coupons (I walked out of the store with the horn, mutes, music, etc for $1300 in 2013). A demo Proteus from Brett himself in their Reverb sale. A Super Deluxe copper-belled horn that's seen a lot of use before I got it, but in the right circumstances a tone like warm liquid chocolate. All three cost less combined than a new Strad.
But the idea of a premier luxury horn still appeals to me, perhaps because I have reached a point in my life where the financial resources are there, or soon to be in reach, to get one. There are lots of options, but I would not spend that kind of money on an older horn, even with airtight provenance. Right now, should I pull the trigger for that level horn, I'm pretty sure it'll be an X-13. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Hey, I totally agree. I’m not rich at all, but some money is a little flexible, so there are options I have my permanent staff (see signature), which I accumulated over 41 years now and every now and then I buy the odd additional horn just for the heck of it. Played it and so far sold all of them again after a while.
If I’ll go for a new horn to stay, it may well be an X-13. It’s the one that stood out over the last few years when playtesting. There are a few others like the Bach Mariachi and Commercial that may be interesting contenders, but the X was the one horn so far that I really thought was superior to my Bach.
Not sure I’d put down the same amount of money on a vintage horn. The only other temptation would be a high end bass trumpet. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: |
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@brassnose - was the X-13 Committee-ish but with modern characteristics? Thanks.
I would hazard a guess to the above thread comment that the X-13 gives that connection to the Committee sound and nostalgic connection the the Be-/Hard Bop players of the past? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hard to say because I never played a Committee (my teacher did, I referred to his comments earlier on).
The main reason why for me the X-13 would be the top candidate for a new Bb after 30 years on the Bach is that it really is the one (piston) horn that made it easier to play - on par with my Schmidt rotary.
It’s a lightweight horn, has a very quick response, super valves, is open but not too open, seems to be quite mouthpiece sensitive, has a better intonation than my Bach (so far I found two horns with that property: the X and anything by Martin Schmidt - maybe my Bach ist just a top intonator ).
The sound is broader than my Bach but I only had my JK USA 5C with me at the time. Will need to go back and test more mouthpieces.
Also I like the open wrap, makes it easy to hold.
Overall, I presume it could be Committee-ish but I can’t say for sure. Visually of course the two bear no resemblance other than that there are three valves and a trumpet bell _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:54 am Post subject: |
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A.N.A.Mendez wrote: | I found out later those Olds Silver Supers from that time period were monsters.(1969-71) I sold that horn to a power player in Australia some years ago (Maynard type player) He was over the moon... | Coincidently, I just saw one for sale here and wanted to try it. Should be here Wednesday, I'll let you know! |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: |
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I found that the X-13 experience is not a lot like playing a Martin Committee, either medium or large bore.
Talking tone, the Committee is unique and only Kanstul has come close. The Edwards is not trying to sound like a Martin.
In the hand, the two are very different. The Committee has a fairly tight wrap, like a Schilke. The X-13 is almost like a Conn Constellation, but much lighter.
Slotting is perhaps similar when the X-13 is set up without the extra doodads.
Blow is really different. Even the large bore version of the Martin is a medium bore design up until the bottom leg of the tuning slide. It means the horn is not so open as other .468" horns. The Edwards is not quite as open as certain Schilkes I've played that seem like there is really no resistance at all. It has resistance, but the overriding impression that I got was that of great responsiveness. Here, the X-13 is above the rest. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Brian. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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khedger Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008 Posts: 754 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | We're getting off-topic, but speaking of Benges . . when I was at UNT, it seemed that many big band players played Benges. I was impressed, they played and sounded great but I couldn't afford one.
When I got a chance to get a new horn, I settled on a Getzen Severinsen. I called it "The Poor Man's Benge", LOL.
Imagine my surprise a couple of years later, when I sat next to a former Benge player who had played lead in the UNT One O'clock band and went on to other name bands, and he had changed horns . . to a Severinsen. |
I love my Benges, but I've always considered the Getzen Eterna Severinsen next in line for quality and feel. They're great horns. I've got two Eterna flutes and I love 'em both.
Keith |
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