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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:20 am Post subject: Scary Notes |
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Gentlemen (and any ladies out there). Any time I have to hit a 4th space E or a 5th line F cold I get scared because I tend to crack or entirely miss them. Now, if they are part of a line with other notes before, not a problem. I can nail the G above the staff easily and the 4th space Eb is not a problem. This has been going on for a couple of years. Does anyone have any insights as to why those two pitches are hard to nail? I'll be 66 in November. Am I just losing my touch? _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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ayryq Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 Posts: 354 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I went through the same thing, with the same two notes.
First thing, practice more. Things that make you jump into that register and out again, from both directions, at different dynamics. Attack and interval practice like Shuebruk Lip Trainers. Practice the first few lines of Hummel. Play a scale and stop on F, then leap an octave away and back without changing your setting. Practice trills D♯→E and E♭→F.
Second I feel like there's sort of a "break" in the instrument there, between D♯ and E—you just need a slight bit more air to get the higher "register." If you're going for a G, you know it's high so you give it a little more air pressure, but you need to do the same for E.
Third, from my experience, once you know those notes are "scary notes" you tend to pinch, hold air, and generally do stupid stuff when one is coming up. As you said "Any time I have to… I get scared." Well, try to imagine what you'd do if you weren't scared. Normal breath, easy. Make that E centered, in tune, and resonant. _________________ Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:54 am Post subject: |
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I do the target practice thing now and then, where I choose random notes and do my best to nail them. I never have trouble with the E or F...or even the ones above them as long as I can hear them in my head before I blow. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2067 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Two things from my experience:
1. Deliberately practice those notes, especially when they are entry points to a phrase. I feel much more prepared when I have the music ready and can actually hear the note in my head before I play it. Sing the note when you practice and make sure you approach it directly and not from above or below.
2. I changed my embouchure a few years ago to allow the upper lip to vibrate much more freely. This and making sure I have a good airstream helps a lot (!). I find myself telling me from time to time “watch how you hold the instrument and keep your top lip free”. I even find myself shifting the mp position while playing to get back into “vibration mode”. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:14 am Post subject: |
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If you think it's because of a “break” , then moving into and away from those notes will help you.
I would begin with step-wise or chromatic slow movements into the note from below and above.
Stretch this into several approach notes, slurred.
- very important is to keep a full air flow and buzz as you change notes. Aim for sameness in all tones.
I may be simplistic, but I don't think you need a laundry list of specific exercises. Just keep this concept and use your imagination.
Later, you can add to this concept, by approaching the notes by interval. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
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ayryq Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 Posts: 354 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: |
- very important is to keep a full air flow and buzz as you change notes. Aim for sameness in all tones.
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I don't know how I forgot buzzing. Mouthpiece buzzing could really help with this. Try sirens through the affected register and arpeggios (connected with glissandi always). Get James Thompson's Buzzing Book—read everything then work up to exercise 8 which runs through this area. _________________ Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2342 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Beyond there being a mechanical issue with your trumpet, dent in the wrong place, spit valve leaking, extreme gap issue, extreme soft rim shape, or that kind of thing, I would say that this is not an uncommon issue.
The top line F can be a slippery devil to hit square (...the first note of Charlier #2), it also tends to be a bit sharp. The E below it might be more of a tuning issue - a flat note that you're trying to hit and immediately adjust.
Practice, practice, practice, scales, scales, scales, Clarke.... etc..
SLOW practice!
THEN as in all practice, isolate things that you're having issues with. An idea for this, I call a "first note drill".
1. metronome set at 60 (-ish)
2. thinking 6/4 time signature
3. play a full quarter note on beat 1, rest for 5 beats (taking the mouthpiece off of your chops).
4. think about the next note
5. reset and play another quarter note on beat 1
6. continue for several minutes playing random notes, scale patterns, tunes, whatever.
7. vary range, dynamics, and articulations
cheers _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Last edited by zaferis on Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3318 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: |
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It is important to know the 'physical feelings' (lips, tongue, jaw, throat, etc.) for each note, AND to establish that feeling in preparation for playing the note.
It does not need to be a 'conscious thought' action - better if it is an unconscious 'reflex' that is developed by practice with perhaps some conscious thought and attention to the process.
My experience is that slow practice of exercise pieces that have unexpected intervals is good. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Fourth space E is a scary note and so is ledger line A. I think the E is scary because that is a really flat partial so we tend to miss it. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Jaw04 wrote: | Fourth space E is a scary note and so is ledger line A. I think the E is scary because that is a really flat partial so we tend to miss it. |
As someone who has played trumpet, cornet, flugelhorn, french horn, baritone, euphonium, Eb cornet and a bunch of other stuff, every horn has issues. And every setup, mouthpiece included has issues. So if you play the note against your tuner, do you notice any issues? So many times the centered note is so off that the process of hitting it and bringing it into tune makes for a bungle frequently.
This morning I was playing a bunch of stuff on baritone and the A above the staff was it's usual slippery slope. I changed mouthpieces and it slotted perfectly as did the notes above it.
For some reason, people are reluctant to try a mouthpiece change to fix an intonation or slotting issue. I don't get that. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2067 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:26 am Post subject: |
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I tend to agree to that. I can use any of my mouthpieces on all trumpets but the results will not be the same, so I resorted to using a specific instrument/mp combo that works much better than others. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of good suggestions here, but to add to them, the one I didn’t notice is ear training.
I firmly believe that ear training is extremely helpful to especially a brass player. If you can “hear” the pitch before you play it, by knowing what intervals are and what they sound like, your odds of nailing a solid, centered note are increased. A lot. How do you develop a good sense of relative pitch? Singing is a great start.
Of course none of the above takes the place of much of the other advice, but I really believe it helps.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2067 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. In a way that is what I meant when I said you have to hear the note in your head before playing it, but ear training is of course much more than that. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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BarryWilson Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 37
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:48 am Post subject: |
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You guys are great! Thank you for all the ideas. I'm going to copy them into a document and create a practice regime using your suggestions. _________________ Barry Wilson
Hodges, SC
Yamaha YTR 8310ZII Bobby Shew Custom
Yamaha YTR 8335 Gen I Xeno (Back up horn)
Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugel
Leblanc Paris C |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2067 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Actually, come to think of it: I’m just starting to practice with a drone. I’m not well into it but it seems useful for training my ear. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:11 am Post subject: |
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I suggest solfeggio. Sing the note before you attempt it. If you can't hear it in your head or sing the note, you won't get it. It does not have to be in the exact register, either. An octave down will also work.
As you now seem to have developed the mind set you can't "hit" those notes cleanly, you have now that firmly in your mind.
Lip flexibilities are now essential to overcome this condition.
Scales and other practice mentioned above are also paramount.
Don't overthink this! Think of the sound/pitch you want and the minute adjustments you need to make will come.
I was lucky. I was taught not to over analyze and just listen for the sound and result I wanted.
Bad habits can be overcome, but it will take some time and serious work.
R. Tomasek |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | I suggest solfeggio. Sing the note before you attempt it. If you can't hear it in your head or sing the note, you won't get it. It does not have to be in the exact register, either. An octave down will also work.
As you now seem to have developed the mind set you can't "hit" those notes cleanly, you have now that firmly in your mind.
Lip flexibilities are now essential to overcome this condition.
Scales and other practice mentioned above are also paramount.
Don't overthink this! Think of the sound/pitch you want and the minute adjustments you need to make will come.
I was lucky. I was taught not to over analyze and just listen for the sound and result I wanted.
Bad habits can be overcome, but it will take some time and serious work.
R. Tomasek |
I have a good ear and stay on point pretty good to about hi f and then I lose the pitch and intervals. At one time I could hear tunes and be pretty accurate playing them to my limit. 47 years of listening to electric blues I can’t do that but I’m still accurate to hi d ( not gaining ground here). I tried training ear with piano but it isn’t doing as much as I’d hoped. I can practice above there but with the lack of any slotting I many times overshot target. Any suggestions for learning where these notes set. I’ve always been able to hear the note before I played when it worked right, but this new range is different. I know why but haven’t solved it. Will an analyzer help?
Rod |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:30 am Post subject: |
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@Rod - This may be a factor and other THers might more specifically know, but as one gets older, isn't it accompanied with a loss of hearing in the upper accoustics?
Of so, it means that there are some aspects you can't control. Maybe hearing aids can help compensate.
In the meantime, I don't see a short cut to just an increase in consistent ear-training and matching pitches by playing octaves first, adding others intervals later and playing something in the staff and then the same phrase an octave above with critical listening. Some Schlossber exercises could be used. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3318 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Rod Haney wrote: | ... but with the lack of any slotting I many times overshot target. ... |
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Yes, 'slotting' can give a big assist in 'establishing the pitch' - because the instrument helps 'push' the pitch to match the harmonic - if the harmonic slots have significant pitch separation.
Without strong slotting, the player must have much better embouchure control to produce the desired pitch WITHOUT the 'mechanical assist' of the tubing and harmonics. The only way to do that is a trained combination of 'hearing the pitch' and 'forming the necessary embouchure' for that pitch. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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tonylemons New Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2021 Posts: 1 Location: Atlanta, GA
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Creating as many tethers to the note you see on the page is key, I think. Singing in the head/physically feeling/subdiving before so your body is coordinated.. everything comes together during performance to get you closer to success.
Shuebruk Lip Trainers has helped me in practice. Grade 2, intervals, and the basic attack exercises. Use different metronome markings, imagine them as entrances in pieces, etc. Use them as a template, and mentally get off of the page to apply them to whichever situations are troubling you! |
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