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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:45 pm Post subject: How to hear overtones? |
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There was a mention of overtones in a different thread and OldSchoolEuph mentioned (and rightly so) that I should create a new thread for it so…
How can you hear overtones (or how do you know that’s what you’re hearing)? Youtube’s a little sparse on the matter (though there’s plenty on saxophone overtones and the theory behind it). Is an ‘open sound’ a sound with many overtones, or is there more to it than that? |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6193
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:24 am Post subject: |
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You could try to use Audacity. In essence, you would be experimenting with a sound synthesizer.
Generate on the first track a sine wave signal for the fundamental. Add more tracks, using one track per each next harmonic of the fundamental (integer multiple of the fundamental frequency). Listen to the result. You can vary the intensity of each harmonic, both statically (constant) or dynamically (ramp up or down with time).
Adding new harmonics will, as a side effect, increase the overall sound intensity. There is no perfect way to compensate for this. You could save the combined sound files, then normalize their outputs to the same maximum amplitude. However, such normalization will also alter the intensity of the fundamental and other harmonics. |
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windandsong Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 706 Location: Whitstable, UK
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Can somebody explain the basic difference in sound heard in a room with a trumpet that has more overtones?
Is this a colour thing? ie dark and bright? Or is it a complexity thing? Is it to do with a broadness or focus of sound? Just interested!
I have heard these terms being chucked around but have always questioned what it actually means and how it SOUNDS in the 'real world'?
G _________________ Bach 180/37
#7 pipe |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:01 am Post subject: |
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This is something that must be experienced to understand. You need to sit next to a great player, listen and copy. It will sound different from this perspective than it will in the hall or on a recording. You may be surprised how "bright" or "harsh" a professional sounds. Words describing sound just doesn't work. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: | This is something that must be experienced to understand. You need to sit next to a great player, listen and copy. It will sound different from this perspective than it will in the hall or on a recording. You may be surprised how "bright" or "harsh" a professional sounds. Words describing sound just doesn't work. |
Perfect. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 4:28 am Post subject: |
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In this video you see Adam Rapa as a solist, not quite on his favorite ground I suspect, and there is a lot to learn about resonance/overtones. Play it and go to 1.25 where Plilip Cobb takes the lead with an unbelievable resonance with heaps of overtones, watch the reaction of Adam Rapa, that reaction is all about overtones/resonance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR_4VEuLNA8&ab_channel=brassweek |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I figured it'd be hard to explain, and I thank you for trying. To be honest delano, I do not hear any difference in the video you linked, besides the sound being a bit brighter maybe. I have no doubt the difference is there, it's just hidden from my hearing and/or lack of training.
As I'm writing this, I'm also googling stuff and found this site and the explanation/samples on it are wonderful. I'm also trying the leadpipe excercise that Manuel posted about in the other thread and it didn't work at first...but at the advice of a reddit post, I tried it again in our bathroom. I *think* I may be able to hear the octave overtone now in my own playing, provided it sounds a bit like a glockenspiel key being hit...if not, then my mind is probably playing tricks on me.
Overtones are a fascinating subject for sure. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Why do you think that the sound got a bit brighter?
BTW overtone singing is quite normal and very old in certain parts of central Asia and it has become some kind of industry in the wellness world.
This is a very good example:
http://www.tychosnose.com/duet-yourself/
Asia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx8hrhBZJ98&ab_channel=TonioDelafuente
Joe Zawinel sometimes used this kind of throat singing.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhSEKxQjOpY&ab_channel=KUULAR
There is a chance that the combination of your horn (Olds Recording) and your mouthpiece (AR Resonance) makes the hearing of the overtones more difficult because that combination may favor the core of the tone.
For the production of overtones on a trumpet the right breathing, the right embouchure and playing right in the sweet spot are absolute necessities.
And then you got the bright or even harsh sound Billy B. described.
Last edited by delano on Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:09 am; edited 5 times in total |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | Why do you think that the sound got a bit brighter? |
Well, I’m guessing it’s because of the overtones but I really have no idea (hence I’m asking, for verification purposes). This is literally the first time I’ve ever considered them outside of a physics class.
EDIT: I listened to the video again, this time with headphones, and I finally noticed the difference you mean. With laptop/phone speakers, I actually preferred Adam Rappa's sound over that of Phil Cobb. But on headphones, it's a whole different thing...not just brighter, but more vibrant. Not saying I'm able to discern individual overtones...but effect they have on the sound is clear to me now.
Last edited by deleted_user_687c31b on Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2655 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Imagine you are graphing the sound. Listen and see how much highs and lows do you hear. I've talked about it before as a 1-10 scale. A player may emphasize 4-6 and you will say he has a strong core to the sound. Many players only have that. Adam Rapa in that recording had a sound mostly in the 4-7 range. Many times that can be from tension in the embouchure. Relaxation can allow more overtones. Supporting with full air also.
Listen to many players with these thoughts. Also mouthpieces can affect the sound. Heavy blanks tend to alter the sound and lose high overtones. The reverse is also true.
Not everyone can hear the overtones. On another forum site, we regularly talk about this horn or that, this mouthpiece or that because the members regularly post video demonstrations of new horns. Some people don't hear the overtones at all.
I think of sound as having a breadth and height because that is what I hear. _________________ Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 656 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:56 am Post subject: |
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A tone is just a certain amount of Hz, like A = 440 Hz. concert pitch.
A sound is a complex collection of overtones, you can experience this when sitting behind a piano.
For example, push in with your right hand very slowly very soft a middle E, G and C without making them sound, it's possibel!
Now push firm with your left hand a lower C let this sound for one second, than release the key so the low C doesn't sound anymore.
When the right hand still pushes down the middel E,G and C you can hear them sounding now softly: The overtones from the low C makes that other strings vibrate since they are overtones of that low C
A nice sound on a trumpet has his overtones as well and if you have a decent trumpet you can hear them when your playing technique is right. It takes some practise but it 's fun to do AND it pays off: It makes playing easier!
Allways strife for a sound with as much as possibel overtones _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:38 am Post subject: |
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I may have missed, but -
Is a tone rich in overtones something that is the desired goal? Don't the tone qualities of a sound depend on the distribution of overtones? It seems to me, that there is no ideal distribution of overtones.
That is, someone wanting a great “cutting” sound might want a tone that is rich in upper partials. But someone wanting a dark, introverted sound might need more middle and lower partials. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2644
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I've been playing for a long time and have a bunch of professional level trumpets. I've never experienced the overtone thing and, I've never heard it from another player. Although, holding down the piano key thing works for me.
I've also sat next to really good players in a section or lesson and never heard it.
I have noticed that some players have a brighter sound and some darker. I never related it to overtones, just their sound or equipment used. _________________ Joe Spitzer
Monroe Ct. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3310 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:10 am Post subject: |
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It might be similar to how some people can taste many different flavors within a food or drink - while others get the taste of the overall blend of the flavors.
It's a 'sensory thing' - maybe it can be learned & trained, or maybe there are genetic limits.
For people who listen to the music (as opposed to listening to the sound) the concern is the overall blend.
And again, some people get their enjoyment from the sound, others from the music. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 985
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Just another angle on the topic.
It’s not really dog whistle level pitches because that would be out of our audible spectrum but the overtones I hear are of a high pitched nature.
The first time that it was explained to me and experienced it was in a private lesson with Dr. Dennis Horton at Central Michigan University in 1996.
We were working on intonation and had the tuner out.
He explained to me what to listen for and that once I locked in the pitch where it’s not five or 10 cents sharp or flat and it was hitting the line dead center that I would start to hear some pitches up high.
These could be the third, the fifth, octave….etc
Sure enough once the note locked in on the tuner I started to listen for higher sounds. The better my pitch was the more of these locked in and the sound also became more rich (or insert your own adjective.)
Once I knew what to listen for I could hear when they were lining up. That’s my take on it. |
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Dr. Getzen New Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2016 Posts: 1 Location: Philadelphia, PA
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Overtones in general are easiest to hear if you adjust tongue position while signing, making an a->ae->e->i sound. Those higher notes that resonate at different positions are the overtones themselves. You could also adjust the cutoff on a synthesizer if you have it. _________________ Heaven played every trumpet and played every horn
The marvelous, wonderful night
You were born. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Shaft wrote: | Just another angle on the topic.
It’s not really dog whistle level pitches because that would be out of our audible spectrum but the overtones I hear are of a high pitched nature.
The first time that it was explained to me and experienced it was in a private lesson with Dr. Dennis Horton at Central Michigan University in 1996.
We were working on intonation and had the tuner out.
He explained to me what to listen for and that once I locked in the pitch where it’s not five or 10 cents sharp or flat and it was hitting the line dead center that I would start to hear some pitches up high.
These could be the third, the fifth, octave….etc
Sure enough once the note locked in on the tuner I started to listen for higher sounds. The better my pitch was the more of these locked in and the sound also became more rich (or insert your own adjective.)
Once I knew what to listen for I could hear when they were lining up. That’s my take on it. |
You were playing the pitch that was most resonant or in other terms the natural pitch of the instrument determined by the length of the pipe. Only when our lips vibrate at the same frequency as the standing wave within the instrument does the full spectrum of overtones appear giving us a rich, full sound. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:09 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | It might be similar to how some people can taste many different flavors within a food or drink - while others get the taste of the overall blend of the flavors.
It's a 'sensory thing' - maybe it can be learned & trained, or maybe there are genetic limits.
For people who listen to the music (as opposed to listening to the sound) the concern is the overall blend.
And again, some people get their enjoyment from the sound, others from the music. |
NO _________________ Bill Bergren |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 656 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Billy B wrote: |
You were playing the pitch that was most resonant or in other terms the natural pitch of the instrument determined by the length of the pipe. Only when our lips vibrate at the same frequency as the standing wave within the instrument does the full spectrum of overtones appear giving us a rich, full sound. |
AND when when our lips vibrate at the same frequency as the standing wave within the instrument you do not have to fight the instrument thus in this mode the instrument is the easyst as she can be played, with the least efford.
That is why you should strive to play right in the core of the note. Try to make this a habit _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I've made play-alongs to help students hear up through their sound and each individual overtone, but you can do it sitting at a piano with a little bit of knowledge and concentration. It's just listening for each note in the harmonic series based on whatever pitch you are playing as the fundamental. It's simple to do but does take a great deal of focus and concentration.
Young students can do this and I've never had a student not get it eventually. Once they can hear it and start to listen for it, their playing improves pretty much instantly. Having a coherent way to conceive of a sound can do wonders.
Some players are able to produce beautiful sounds by just intuitively chasing similar things, but this is a pretty sure and reliable method to a better sound. It doesn't solve every playing problem, but it sure does make a lot of things better. It also isn't prescriptive -- more of a particular harmonic isn't always musically appropriate -- but rather it's a way to greater awareness.
You can visually see this by using an app like Tonal Energy that shows the relative strengths of each harmonic, but it really only has meaning if each harmonic can be heard by the player. |
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