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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2455
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Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hiker74 wrote: | I keep hearing good things about the Yamaha Xeno. Should I add this to my list to play? Thoughts? |
Yes. I have played and recommended Yamaha instruments since 1975.
That being said, I already detailed the Bach-Schilke differences. You can think of most Xeno (but not the Shews) as "Schilke's take on Bach for less than the strongest players" - and before the yelling starts, that was the genesis, not the reality today.
The 4335/6335/8335 Yamaha horns are Bach tapers - but with Schilke leadpipes designed for Bach tapers. Once you get into the later editions, well after Schilke's death, other designers come into play such as Malone and Watanabe. This adds some unique character. Fundamentally though, X335 horns have primarily Bach tapers with greater overall mass and a resultant tolerance for pushing harder without distortion and a slightly less rigid centering profile than Bach 180s.
The exception is the Z (Shew) horns. These are much closer to the French-inspired Schilke roots of earlier Yamaha horns.
As a wise poster already said, ultimately, you have to try them - because we start getting into the subtle interactions between player and horn and we are all different. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2064 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | What are your thoughts on a Schilke B1 from the early 2000’s. There’s one relatively close to me. How is its performance compared to Bach Stradivarius? |
Depends on which Bach Strad you mean. Many people seem to conflate "Bach Strad" with the Bach 18037. The Schilke B1 is quite different than that horn. The sound on the Schilke is less focused than on the Bach, has less core and may be a bit brighter as well. The Schilke is also freer blowing and has looser slots. Feedback and responsiveness also seem to be quicker on the Schilke.
I've owned the Schilke B1, B2, B5 and S32, and none of them were similar to any of the Bach models I have played (though the S32 came closest). Very different design philosophies producing equally fine horns. |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks! I need to play a Schilke |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2064 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Thanks! I need to play a Schilke |
See if you can try the B1 and the B5. They will offer you a good sense of the Schilke design philosophy. The other common models are largely variations on those horns. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5698 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Having played a Schilke for the better part of 10 years, I have a couple of thoughts about them, or at least the B6 I played.
The first thought is that Schilke trumpets have superior intonation compared to Bach, Yamaha, etc. The wrap is different so the intonation is a bit different, and IMO better - the notes seem to be naturally more centered without having to lip the pitches anywhere. On my B6, the low D and C# were not that flat - they were close enough I could almost lip them in, but by contrast, the low E was a bit sharp - enough that I needed to account for it by throwing the slide on any note that was longer than a passing note.
Related to that thought was that when playing in an ensemble full of Bachs and Yamahas, I needed to pay attention to those intonation differences.
My next thought is that the sound, like others have mentioned, was nice and brilliant, but didn't seem to have the same kind of density that a Bach would have.
Another thought is that I always enjoyed the response and blow of that trumpet - it always felt good to play.
Yet another thought is that the slotting on that B6 was really slippery, and I probably made it worse, rather than better, by having a valve alignment done. This was the unfortunate Achilles heel of that horn for me and the reason I ultimately ended up moving to a different horn altogether. If I wasn't really on my game in the practice room, that horn would bite me on a gig - SO many chipped and splee-ah'd notes - particularly if I had to pick off something in my upper register. It got to the point where I became afraid of those kinds of lines. When I transitioned over to the Jupiter 1600i, it was refreshing to be able to just nail those kinds of figures without having to wonder if I was going to miss.
I don't know if the B1 or B5 are better on slotting - I have no real experience with either of them - but as much as I enjoyed the B6 in the time I had it, I don't think I'd go back to it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8925 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | My next thought is that the sound, like others have mentioned, was nice and brilliant, but didn't seem to have the same kind of density that a Bach would have. |
I briefly played a bunch of Schilke horns at a NAMM show and my perception of a lack of "density" in the tone (versus my Bach horns) was the reason I couldn't get more excited about them. As I recall they played pretty well. And I've heard other folks play them and sound great. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5698 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | trickg wrote: | My next thought is that the sound, like others have mentioned, was nice and brilliant, but didn't seem to have the same kind of density that a Bach would have. |
I briefly played a bunch of Schilke horns at a NAMM show and my perception of a lack of "density" in the tone (versus my Bach horns) was the reason I couldn't get more excited about them. As I recall they played pretty well. And I've heard other folks play them and sound great. |
I always felt like I was sticking out just a little bit from a sound perspective. Then again, my sound tends to be a bit on the bright side anyway, so maybe it was matter of the horn made my already bright sound even brighter.
The lion's share of the playing I did on that horn was amplified with a microphone and not playing with other trumpet players - I played with trombone and sax - and it worked really well for that. The B6 worked really well with a microphone. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2455
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Some people like a brighter sound, some like a darker sound.
Some like tight slots, some like loose (and some of us prefer the middle)
This is where you have to decide for yourself because this thread will advocate for personal favorites.
Just a tip: as you try these Bachs (don't forget that light 72) and Schilke, and whatever else may pop up, take a tuner with you and see if you are comfortable with how you and the loose or tight centering of the given horn interact with you as you work for in tune intervals and scales. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5698 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Some people like a brighter sound, some like a darker sound.
Some like tight slots, some like loose (and some of us prefer the middle)
This is where you have to decide for yourself because this thread will advocate for personal favorites.
Just a tip: as you try these Bachs (don't forget that light 72) and Schilke, and whatever else may pop up, take a tuner with you and see if you are comfortable with how you and the loose or tight centering of the given horn interact with you as you work for in tune intervals and scales. |
Yep. Great post right there.
I'm doing my best to not advocate for one horn over another. Mr thought is to give some observations based on what I experienced.
Ultimately I probably did some of my best playing on a standard 37 bell Strad - it was a great middle-of-the-road trumpet that did everything pretty well. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: |
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I found a Stradivarius 43 at a good price point, but it’s 14+ hrs away. How many of you would buy a horn without playing it if it was a really good deal? It’s the same era of manufacture as the one I previously had (1990-1994). If the valve action and compression is good, no real dings and some brush scratches it might be a real deal. It also comes with a case (which I’m learning many of them don’t for some reason).
Finding one at this price would free me up to get a couple nice mouthpieces.
Thoughts? If any of you have any experience with consistency or inconsistency with Strads from this era I’d welcome private messages to that subject or posts here. If it needs new corks or other things it still seems a good deal.
Jon |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 662 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Go and get it Jon, if it turns out to be a disappointment for you you can allways sell her for the same prize. Actually I do the same with all my purchases _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:12 am Post subject: |
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A lot of folks here have mentioned SE Shires.
Has anyone had experience with their Q Series? What about specifically a Q10S?
Why are these less than others in their line? Are these still made in Massachusetts?
Thoughts? |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2455
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hiker74 wrote: | I found a Stradivarius 43 at a good price point, but it’s 14+ hrs away. How many of you would buy a horn without playing it if it was a really good deal? It’s the same era of manufacture as the one I previously had (1990-1994). |
From that period I absolutely WOULD NOT buy it without checking it out in person extensively.
Hiker74 wrote: | A lot of folks here have mentioned SE Shires.
Has anyone had experience with their Q Series? What about specifically a Q10S? |
I have played a few Shires designs, but not those. I have always been impressed by the design, but not always the build quality. At that end of the scale though, odds favor it being solid.
Hiker74 wrote: | Why are these less than others in their line? Are these still made in Massachusetts?
Thoughts? |
As the company recently acknowledged in an article linked in another post here, Eastman contracts their Chinese suppliers to make a significant portion of the parts for Shires horns (such as all of the "bent parts" - valve slides would be an example for instance) which are then united with key parts made in a company-owned facility during final assembly in Mass. This keeps the cost down while still having that extra measure of control over the most critical parts for tone production. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2064 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Has anyone had experience with their Q Series? What about specifically a Q10S?
Why are these less than others in their line? Are these still made in Massachusetts? |
The Q10 is a nice horn based on the Shires A-model horns, and thus along the lines of a Bach 18037 (or Yamaha 8335). I played one for a few months and was impressed -- not as good (for me) as my Bach 19037, but I preferred it to the Yamaha 8335.
I believe the price difference is a result of the horns being ASSEMBLED outside the United States. The parts are, or were, made in Massachusetts with the Shires Custom horns, and then shipped overseas for assembly. Then back to the USA for final fitting or something along those lines. |
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Rapier232 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 1323 Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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A little known Professional level trumpet are those made by Will Spencer in the UK and they are ridiculously cheap. They cost less new than some second hand trumpets I’ve purchased over the years. You can tell him what you want and he will make it for you. Well worth checking out. _________________ "Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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gregplo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 Posts: 506 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:42 am Post subject: |
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So many horns, so little time. Trumpet players are blessed, and cursed, with a plethora of terrific horns. I've read through much of this thread and haven't seen any mention of the Stomvi horns. I just picked up a Stomvi S3 that is a fantastic playing horn...a keeper. They also have the Elite series, which is probably closer to the Bach Strad feel and sound.
In addition, I've seen no mention of the Conn Vintage One horns, and they can be great horns...but make sure you look at the ones with all of the accessories that came with the horn...Rounded and "D" tuning slides and the MWV Caps (Multi Weight Valve caps).
I've played many Bach Strads, including the Commercial and Artisan lines, and several Yamaha horns, but never found one that really worked for me.
If you can try before you buy, that is always a bonus, but unfortunately not always possible. _________________ Best Regards,
Greg
Jaeger Custom (Heavy Bell)
Stomvi Titan (Bellflex Bell)
Conn 61B
CarolBrass Arturo Sandoval Pocket Trumpet
CarolBrass CFL-620R
Getzen CB 610
Remember...when He returns, the trumpet shall sound.... |
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falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 944 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Hiker74 wrote: | I found a Stradivarius 43 at a good price point, but it’s 14+ hrs away. How many of you would buy a horn without playing it if it was a really good deal? It’s the same era of manufacture as the one I previously had (1990-1994). If the valve action and compression is good, no real dings and some brush scratches it might be a real deal. It also comes with a case (which I’m learning many of them don’t for some reason).
Finding one at this price would free me up to get a couple nice mouthpieces.
Thoughts? If any of you have any experience with consistency or inconsistency with Strads from this era I’d welcome private messages to that subject or posts here. If it needs new corks or other things it still seems a good deal.
Jon |
Hi, here's something you can try, but it's not a guarantee you'll get what you want.
I sold a couple horns where I got on FaceTime (Skype, Google Meet work too) and demo the horn. I will also play it with my legit and lead mouthpiece and in different styles. I have also demoed the horn on my iPad and sent the video to the perspective buyer. I know it's not the same as trying it, but you get to see the horn top to bottom and get to hear it close to
If you find one at Austin Custom Brass or Dillon they will give you a period of time to try the horn to help make your decision.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
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Hiker74 Regular Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2016 Posts: 38 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Dayton"][quote]Has anyone had experience with their Q Series? What about specifically a Q10S?
I think the deal is some of the bent parts are made by Eastman, their parent company now. Bells and valves appear to still be made in Massachusetts.
Jon |
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giligan385 New Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Posts: 2
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:31 am Post subject: |
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[quote="OldSchoolEuph"][quote="RL"]Comparing B&S trumpets with chinese horns is rather strange.[/quote]
[quote]Not really. The Buffet-Crampon empire through VMI/B&S makes a wide range of branded and stencil product spanning the range of quality and price. Chinese makers do as well. You would be surprised how little difference in the percentages there actually is.[/quote]
On this subject, you could very much make this claim about any modern day company that have product lines with different pricing, quality, and instrument categories - such as quality brands from Yamaha, Conn-Selmer, KHS, Eastman etc.
The most interesting part of this is while brands like B&S are perceived as making a "copy," it couldn't be further from the truth. With this same mindset, the 180S37 is a copy of the old Bessons that were popular when Vincent Bach was first expanding his mpc business. Look at the specifications of the most popular models from any trumpet manufacturer and you'll find they are all technically "copies." 'The differences are in the nuances of the quality of raw materials, knowledgeable craftsmen, and a nice mix of modern/traditional manufacturing techniques from maker to maker, brand to brand, horn to horn, even.
This is what we all decide between depending on our preferences of familiarity, flexibility, concept of sound, and so on.
What you have to look out for are brands that don't actually own, control, or make their own products. These are hard to identify and are most likely getting their products from Asian manufacturers although they do not advertise this fact.
That said, all brands mentioned so far are quality in nature and the suggestion remains to try what you can find and you won't be displeased. If you are, most everything here has a good resale value, including brands like B&S. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2455
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Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: |
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giligan385 wrote: | The most interesting part of this is while brands like B&S are perceived as making a "copy," it couldn't be further from the truth. With this same mindset, the 180S37 is a copy of the old Bessons that were popular when Vincent Bach was first expanding his mpc business. |
B&S openly referred to the Challengers as Bach clones - so I think it fair to say "copy" there. And while every modern trumpet loosely follows the wrap pioneered around 1880 by Fontaine-Besson, the model 180, particularly with a 37 bell, is far from a clone - significantly further even than the first Bachs with say a T or a 7 bell, the shorter wrap, and the true Besson D radius slide. Bach evolved his valves through at least 6 iterations from a Blessing starting point, not Besson, his leadpipes through many more, starting from - and returning to - Holton concepts, and his wrap from a Besson-esque 2-over-2-under to a very Holton like wrap in the mid 50's, which then became the 180 with adjustments to tighten centering and have a normal looking pull as requested by Selmer. The first Bach Strads were unique from their inspirations, as was every generation that followed, in a way that one cannot say about a B&S Challenger (or the Holton T-101 series of Bach clones). _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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