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taylordiving Regular Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 Posts: 66
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:07 pm Post subject: Flugelhorn search |
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I've recently decided to take the plunge and get a flugelhorn which I would use mostly for doubling. My price range is $850-$1700 and the professional grade choices I'm finding (used of course) are Courtois or Couesnon, Yamaha 631 or 731, Getzen Eterna and Benge 3. I have no real idea what to go on and, given that I'm looking at used instruments there's really no shop I can go into to try them all out. Thus, I'm likely not going to be able to play test them first so my only real requirement (other than getting something that of course works properly!) would be that I want it to sound like a flugelhorn and not trumpety nor cornetty. Any suggestions/advice/input would be greatly appreciated! _________________ Calicchio 1s7
Yamaha 8310Z
Reynolds Leonard Smith Contempora
1941 & 1942 Olds Supers
Getzen Eterna Cornet
Yamaha 8315G Flugel
Last edited by taylordiving on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ancientram Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2019 Posts: 86 Location: Fairborn OH USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: Flugelhorn Search |
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I had a Getzen 4-valve Eterna for years. Its sound was big and all flugelhorn.
Steve |
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taylordiving Regular Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2013 Posts: 66
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Flugelhorn Search |
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Ancientram wrote: | I had a Getzen 4-valve Eterna for years. Its sound was big and all flugelhorn.
Steve |
Thank you Steve, did you find it much different to play than a standard 3 valve? _________________ Calicchio 1s7
Yamaha 8310Z
Reynolds Leonard Smith Contempora
1941 & 1942 Olds Supers
Getzen Eterna Cornet
Yamaha 8315G Flugel |
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CalicchioMan Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 336 Location: Florida
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:37 pm Post subject: Flugelhorn |
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I'd go with a Yamaha, several models to choose from.
Best,
Scott _________________ Yamaha 8310ZII
Yamaha 631G Flugelhorn
Mendini Superbone
Pickett Mouthpieces |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Take a look at Carol Brass, either one of their own labels (I had a 9990, nice fluegel) or the Manchester Brass branded model (nice all-rounder sold by ACB in theUSA and Fultone in the UK). I really like their sound profiles and the quality is good--boutique makers from all over use their valve blocks.
Depending on where you live you might be able to get one on approval from your country's dealer.
One word of caution no matter which horn you go with: the mouthpiece has as much to do with a fluegel sound as the horn does. All the makers you listed make very capable horns; do the one you pick justice by getting a great mouthpiece. I have good luck with Taylor, Wick, and Klier but the mouthpiece forum is your best stop there. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 710 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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I have owned my 4 valve Getzen Eterna Flug for ... wow! 51 years come February. I have played it in a small variety of venues, including doing cello music on my Sr recital, for which its big sound was great. The old 896 4 valve is a 0.459" ML bore horn.
I have found the smaller bore flugs, like the Yamahas, Coutois, Couesnon, post Mt Vernon Bach,, in fact, most newer designs like the newer Getzens have a softer attack (my wife, who has been with me a week shorter than the Getzen flug calls it "feminine ") that is better IMHO for jazz and ballads than the larger bores. But that is not an absolute, and I have heard a lot of good jazz from the Getzens.
I would also consider the ACB Doubler, very much like the Yamaha 631G. I have one of those ACB's and have enjoyed it. Tough choices. I have used the Getzen playing Christmas ballads at church in the last few years, and was very well received. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Ancientram Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2019 Posts: 86 Location: Fairborn OH USA
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:50 pm Post subject: Flugel Search |
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Taylordiving,
Never played a 3-valve, piston flugel. I used mine exclusively for church stuff, mostly around Christmas; never any jazz. Always got favorable comments.
Steve |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 632 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Shawnino wrote: | Take a look at Carol Brass, either one of their own labels (I had a 9990, nice fluegel) or the Manchester Brass branded model (nice all-rounder sold by ACB in theUSA and Fultone in the UK). I really like their sound profiles and the quality is good--boutique makers from all over use their valve blocks.
Depending on where you live you might be able to get one on approval from your country's dealer.
One word of caution no matter which horn you go with: the mouthpiece has as much to do with a fluegel sound as the horn does. All the makers you listed make very capable horns; do the one you pick justice by getting a great mouthpiece. I have good luck with Taylor, Wick, and Klier but the mouthpiece forum is your best stop there. |
Seconded on the Manchester Brass flugel. And the service and knowledge at ACB are second to none. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9064 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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As long as there is ACB discussion, I recently got an Adams F-1. Out of the price range you are aiming for, but as I was looking at Flugelhorns, I tried an Adams Sonic. It was very good and versatile.
You might check with ACB and see if they have a used one for sale.
https://youtu.be/7f6goZ2UjWk _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2071 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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The F1 is on the trombone-ish side of flugel things. I played one a while ago and found it to be a rather large horn. Nice ergonomics and playability. To me it seems (but I may be mistaken) that the larger, trombone-style flugels like Kanstul 1525, Adams F1 and F2 are more expensive than the Couesnon style smaller horns. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2423 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I've been playing a 4-valve Getzen Eterna since the late 1970s. It's a big horn, with a big bell, a larger bore, and a bit more weight (due to the 4th valve). It's a great horn with a lot of presence.
About 4 years ago, I purchased a 1969 Olds L-12 Flugelhorn, which has been my main player lately. It's a smaller horn, with a smaller bell and a smaller bore. It's also a very nice horn, and maybe a bit more nimble than the Getzen.
In your price range a used Gezten Eterna or Custom, a used Yamaha 631, a new CarolBrass, or a new ACB Doubler would all be reasonable choices. Other reasonable choices in your price range include a new Jupiter, used Conn V1, used Bach 183, and a few others.
For me personally, all Flugelhorns have some intonation challenges. But for me, I think the Couesnon and Benge flugelhorns are especially difficult to play in tune.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1943 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:34 am Post subject: |
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I recently acquired a Noblet flugelhorn, which is a stencil of an earlier Leblanc flugel, which is in turn a stencil of an earlier Courtois design (the generation before the "direct air" 154/155 series). They are all basically the same horn, and look like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313663030775?hash=item4907c605f7%3Ag%3AJbkAAOSwsrZhKYqH&nma=true&si=1jhvCWVj0yVWBKnnF6TAl62ZGWc%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
The only odd thing about them is that they use a very proprietary mouthpiece (longer/narrower shank than a standard French taper) and leadpipe. However, a shortened version of Charlie Melk's Couesnon replacement leadpipe fits just fine; I bought one of those so that I can use regular small Morse taper flugel pieces with the horn.
It has a lovely flugel tone and good intonation. The Noblet version is Mike Metheny's horn of choice; you can hear him play it on several YouTube videos.
Across all three brands, they crop up fairly frequently on eBay, and seem to go for under $1,000 unless they are in perfect like-new condition.
Last edited by Halflip on Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:54 am Post subject: |
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I also own an ACB Doubler FLugel. I am new to Flugel playing but so far I am really happy with just about everything about the horn. The price is amazingly low. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9064 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | The F1 is on the trombone-ish side of flugel things. I played one a while ago and found it to be a rather large horn. Nice ergonomics and playability. To me it seems (but I may be mistaken) that the larger, trombone-style flugels like Kanstul 1525, Adams F1 and F2 are more expensive than the Couesnon style smaller horns. | I'm afraid I don't know what "trombonish" means, but I compared it with a Couesnon and it was almost the same results. Mouthpiece and attitude have a lot to do with it. That's the sound, playability may vary.
(I was going after an Art Farmer, To Sweden With Love sound.) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oljackboy Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Posts: 290
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Yamaha 631/731. Really nice horn, and if you decide to replace it you can get what you paid for it.
Whatever you decide on. make sure that your mouthpiece has the right taper! |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2349 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2423 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:52 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I'm afraid I don't know what "trombonish" means, but I compared it with a Couesnon and it was almost the same results. Mouthpiece and attitude have a lot to do with it. That's the sound, playability may vary. |
I agree.
There are no "trombonish" or "trumpety" flugelhorns. But there are "trombonish" and "trumpety" flugelhorn players. Learn how to play it like a flugelhorn, and you'll get the sound you desire.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Hard to go wrong with any Yamaha. I'd recommend using a stock Yamaha mouthpiece until you get lined up on the horn then you can look wider to refine the sound.
Just to ask, is there a recording of the flugel sound you hope to emulate? _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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austincustombrass Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2018 Posts: 246 Location: Kansas City, MO
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1558 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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When I was searching for a flugelhorn, I played a lot of them. I eventually bought a Taylor Standard that I really like and like the sound of, but I also found the old fashioned Yamahas the 631 in particular to be really solid. I prefer the Taylor (some say French) sound, but I do not think you can go wrong with the Yamaha and they can be found in your price range.
Have not played the ACB horns, but I have heard good things and ACB is top notch to deal with. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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