Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:13 am Post subject: Re: what is jazz
Billy B wrote:
One shouldn't have to dumb down the material so someone will "appreciate" the content. One should undertake educating the person to realize the value of the art form. This isn't fast food.
I disagree with that completely. I'm not a jazz player, but I'm a jazz appreciator, so maybe I have a different perspective on this topic. Details below...
I agree with what hibidogrulez said:
hibidogrulez wrote:
It's kinda like telling someone who's decided that they don't like classical music to listen to a standard recording of Beethoven's 5th. Yes, it'll teach them what classical music is but it's not gonna make them appreciate it. You'd probably get them more interested by starting with something like, older musical tunes (say, Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera) or (you're gonna detest this) something like disney movie or video game music played by an orchestra, and then work your way up to the more traditional pieces.
I couldn't agree more, and I don't "detest" your idea at all. It's completely the right way.
I haven't seen the term "accessibility" used in this thread yet, and it's an important concept when helping people appreciate complicated genres of music with which they aren't familiar.
Jazz can be difficult to listen to if you aren't conditioned to listen to complicated music. When I started having the jazz radio on during the day, I at first couldn't do a whole day of it. I liked it, but it was mentally draining to process that much complicated material that I didn't know. There was a limit to how long it could be on.
There's a reason there are pops orchestras and concerts, and there are pieces we call "light" classics. It's music that people who aren't really into classical music can still enjoy. There's nothing wrong with that stuff, and it's not "dumbing down" as described by Billy.
This raises the question for me, what's "pops" in jazz? If I were going to play something for someone to help them appreciate jazz, I might start with something that was shown to have had crossover appeal. Dave Brubeck Quartet and Vince Guaraldi come to mind, because they were (and still are) popular to non-jazz audiences.
Speaking of Disney songs, Dave Brubeck did a whole album of it. Someday my Prince will Come gets regular play on my jazz station:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBFzLEMvi4M
This year Greg Murphy's Chim Chim Cher-ee was also popular on the radio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-C0yYQDRP4
Maybe that one is a little heavy for a jazz beginner, but you get the idea, I think.
Something with a familiar melody that swings is a great introduction to jazz. The listener can hear where the head is, and as a result has something to tie the improv parts to in their mind. That idea of "what's going on?" is a big deal for a lot of people who are used to verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus type of music.
If you're trying to get someone into jazz, having them start with things that have modern instrumentation and feel might be something to think about, too:
It has a popping electric bass, an accessible and modern sax solo, and swings hard. When I started listening to jazz, I preferred hearing an electric bass, but now I've come to like the sound of both acoustic and electric.
People don't like to be wholesale dropped into a new genre of music where nothing is recognizable and there's no attachment point to something that they know and understand. That's maybe the most important thing to keep in mind. Find something that they will be able to somehow relate to, whether it's the instruments, or the melody, or maybe even the performer (like maybe in the case of Phil Collins Big Band).
Last edited by alan_o on Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:14 am Post subject: Re: what is jazz
Billy B wrote:
One shouldn't have to dumb down the material so someone will "appreciate" the content. One should undertake educating the person to realize the value of the art form. This isn't fast food.
"Dumb down" is perhaps the wrong approach, or the wrong way to put it. I think you will agree that, across the various examples of "good" jazz, there are some that are more "accessible" to the uninitiated, and some that are less so. If the motive of the OP is to "teach [not really the best word to use here--you can't "teach" jazz using one recording, but only provide a glimpse of it] someone what jazz is, and ideally have them appreciate it", then you need to offer a sample that will make them want to seek out more, rather than yawn or run away.
To use another food analogy, if I were trying to introduce someone to exotic foods of the far east, I wouldn't start with raw durian or 100-year-old stinky tofu!
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: Re: what is jazz
Halflip wrote:
Billy B wrote:
One shouldn't have to dumb down the material so someone will "appreciate" the content. One should undertake educating the person to realize the value of the art form. This isn't fast food.
"Dumb down" is perhaps the wrong approach, or the wrong way to put it. I think you will agree that, across the various examples of "good" jazz, there are some that are more "accessible" to the uninitiated, and some that are less so. If the motive of the OP is to "teach [not really the best word to use here--you can't "teach" jazz using one recording, but only provide a glimpse of it] someone what jazz is, and ideally have them appreciate it", then you need to offer a sample that will make them want to seek out more, rather than yawn or run away.
To use another food analogy, if I were trying to introduce someone to exotic foods of the far east, I wouldn't start with raw durian!
jinx
So delano came to the complete opposite conclusion we did. Perhaps as he suggests, "[our] take of jazz music is, how to say it, not quite developed."
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:38 am Post subject: Re: what is jazz
alan_o wrote:
jinx
So delano came to the complete opposite conclusion we did. Perhaps as he suggests, "[our] take of jazz music is, how to say it, not quite developed."
Haha -- jinx indeed!
I would add that, IMHO, Vince Guaraldi performing his "Peanuts" compositions and Miles Davis or Chet Baker performing "Someday My Prince Will Come" are right in the middle of the mainstream jazz idiom. To discount a fine example of mainsteam jazz based on the source composition demonstrates in itself a certain ignorance of what jazz is all about. After all, even Sonny Rollins played "I'm an Old Cowhand (From the Rio Grande)" just to show what he could do with it in a jazz context.
The original question isn't "what are some good examples of jazz?" There's an implication that the person the original poster speaks of doesn't know anything about jazz and that it's the intention of the original poster to have this person come to an appreciation of jazz.
A lot of people have to be eased into new stuff, especially music.
My older family doesn't get jazz. I played Bloomdido for a family member one time and got a look as though it was complete noise. Would she ever want to hear it again? No.
If I had played Cast Your Fate to the Wind instead, would she have been interested in hearing it again, and then hearing other things similar to it, and then eventually maybe made her way to Bloomdido on her own? Maybe not. But the likelihood is higher, and maybe she'd have come to an appreciation for a subset of jazz that doesn't include bebop, perhaps.
It's about accessibility and about music that's an on-ramp to the genre. That's how I interpreted the original question.
To mr. Hibidogrulez
After reading your posts I have to come to the conclusion that your take of jazz music is, how to say it, not quite developed. For you it seems to be some kind of entertainment music with a poppy sound and a drumkit. Believe me, that picture is not right, I'm afraid you'll have to work on that.
And yes, jazz can be difficult so it will be hard to sell to people who prefer instant musical satisfaction. But for them is enough stuff to find so let them not bother us.
My advice: start listening to real jazz and start reading about it. The list Billy B. gave above can be of great help, there are enough real great classics in it. .
The advice is appreciated, though it baffles me why everytime you disagree with someone, it has to be written in such a condescending manner. It may comfort you though, that my experience in music (including jazz) is a bit broader than the few suggestions I made earlier, and Billy B.'s list isn't all that unfamiliar to me. Yes, I have a soft spot for Chris Barber's band, especially when they're playing Bob Hunt's arrangements...if you don't like that, tough cookies.
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject:
hibidogrulez wrote:
delano wrote:
No need to fight about futilities like these here. The OP's question is IMO a bridge too far, I really can't imagine that there will be a general agreement about ONE record so the OP will get, if taken seriously, hundereds of answers.
But maybe I found a possible solution though some may think this is too oldfashioned. And it's blues but all jazz is somewhere blues. And in any case about this one could be a liitle bit of agreement.
For a serious answer, that's pretty accurate. It's certainly jazz, by the most basic, purist definition. The fact that it's old fashioned makes it kinda cool actually. However, it's unlikely that someone unfamiliar with jazz will appreciate it (way too slow, dragging on).
It's kinda like telling someone who's decided that they don't like classical music to listen to a standard recording of Beethoven's 5th. Yes, it'll teach them what classical music is but it's not gonna make them appreciate it. You'd probably get them more interested by starting with something like, older musical tunes (say, Les Miserables or Phantom of the Opera) or (you're gonna detest this) something like disney movie or video game music played by an orchestra, and then work your way up to the more traditional pieces.
Ironically, if I were to teach a young kid what jazz is, I'd probably show them Disney's Princess and the Frog. It's a pale comparison to actual jazz, but it's a great entry point into the genre, and the culture behind it (even with the political correctness and factual errors).
Jaw04 wrote:
10 minute bebop solo? What are you talking about? Give an example of that and then we are really getting into the weeds. Bebop recordings are concise, short, to the point, and need no watering down for a listener to appreciate.
Well, not exactly a 10 minute solo, and maybe I mislabel the term bebop to the wrong music, but I'm talking about the type of solos like the piano solo in this piece:
To someone who's not into jazz, such solos can easily start to become repetitive and boring (partly so because they cannot catch the nuances). At least, that's the feedback I've often gotten from non-musical friends when I showed them recordings of jazz music. It doesn't even have to be a single solo, multiple shorter consecutive solos with the same backing track has the same result.
I think a first time listener could definitely appreciate that song, and that Bobby Timmons solo. I teach a middle school jazz band with beginners that have never listened to jazz before the class, and we listen to recordings like this. I ask them questions and walk them through what they are hearing. The more musical kids get more out of the experience, but even the ones that are totally raw and not particularly interested in music can follow along, identify instruments, identify the form, describe how each solo is different, etc. They can understand the music but may require some guidance from a teacher.
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:23 am Post subject:
hibidogrulez wrote:
.
The advice is appreciated, though it baffles me why everytime you disagree with someone, it has to be written in such a condescending manner. It may comfort you though, that my experience in music (including jazz) is a bit broader than the few suggestions I made earlier, and Billy B.'s list isn't all that unfamiliar to me. Yes, I have a soft spot for Chris Barber's band, especially when they're playing Bob Hunt's arrangements...if you don't like that, tough cookies.
Two things, sorry if I said it a little hard but I really don't care whether you have knowledge of jazz or not. That is a misunderstanding. You and that bunch of kids that felt insulted did not understand me. They may of course like what they want just like you. My only point is: if you have only a vague knowledge of jazz don't write advice about it. So they can say: 'Be it', that's right. But stop writing about stuff you don't know. There is no obligation to write here on TH.
BTW I have nothing against well played trad music but Chris Barber is IMO really a dentist students reunion party band. If you really did a lot of thinking why not a more honest and spontaneous band like Tuba Skinny, much more sympathic to me and I suppose a better example of the aspects of jazz you want to show.
You and that bunch of kids that felt insulted did not understand me. They may of course like what they want just like you. My only point is: if you have only a vague knowledge of jazz don't write advice about it.
I hope you don't consider me one of "that bunch of kids", delano. For one thing, I'm 67 years old. For another, jazz has been my favorite music and passion since before I was a teenager. I own recordings by most of the artists (and quite a few of the specific albums) that Billy B listed, as well as many more that he didn't. I have also taken classes in jazz history, theory, and performance (the last two at the Wisconsin Conservatory of Music), and own many reference books on the genre. I think all this adequately qualifies me to 'weigh in' on discussions about jazz.
I did not feel insulted by your comments . . . more like 'bemused'.
I guess I'm grateful that you too have a great passion for jazz and a desire to protect it from being given 'short shrift' or otherwise dealt with inappropriately.
Cheers!
Last edited by Halflip on Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Well, we're talking about a kind of persuasion, aren't we?
One thing I learned in Psych is that you can't persuade anyone to do something they don't want to do: we can use various techniques to lead them to want to do what we want.
(For nefarious purposes ("sign the confession!"), we would simply narrow down the choices between bad and worse, so they want to do the bad thing, but that's not what we're talking about. I hope.)
We can assume that the target (sure, why not) likes music, and that they've already established types of music that they like. Our next task is to try to establish a chain between the music they like, and the jazz that we would like them to enjoy.
Depending on what they like, the entry point could be fusion, R&B, whatever. My jazz taste isn't broad enough to recommend anything at this time, but I think you get the idea. Then you move closer to what you call "jazz" with different tracks.
But it doesn't always work. Years ago, I tried to interest my opera-loving chiropractor in jazz. Even though she said she hated jazz, she was up for the adventure. I tried what I thought was a wide variety of LPs to find an entry point, but she returned them with apologies. She wasn't convinced, so I let it drop.
In retrospect, I think that no matter which sub-genre of jazz she heard, she rebelled against what she saw as the chaos of improvisation. So even Take Fiveor Linus and Lucy wouldn't have worked.
Which leads me to my last point: if a person loves order in music, they might never appreciate jazz because of the role of improvisation in it. The closest genre might be jazz-influenced American orchestral music, but without improvisation.
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Playing for fun since 1979.
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Into that jazz devil music
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:36 pm Post subject:
mograph wrote:
In retrospect, I think that no matter which sub-genre of jazz she heard, she rebelled against what she saw as the chaos of improvisation.
I've heard that argument ad infinitum and it doesn't wash. The same people who say that. are the same ones who will listen to Beethoven's or Mozart's piano pieces and never figure out (or it's not pointed out) that these two were monster improvisors and what you hear is often nothing more than notated improvisation.
Not only that, but the skill that it takes to listen to, and follow, development sections are the same as following an improvisation, granting, of course, that developments are usually more controlled and organized. In my experience, they just don't like the style, that simple. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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but you get the idea, I think.
