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kurth83 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2021 Posts: 73
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: Bought an S22CHD, not a keeper |
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It's going back, thank you WWBW for the marvelous return policy!
This is for symphony work, in local orchestras.
Unlike the S22HD (which is a great horn as expected), the intonation on the S22CHD was a bit too wonky for my taste. So away it goes.
I played it into a guitar tuner to check, although I didn't really need to, it just confirmed what my ears were telling me. I spent 3 days with it, so I gave it a little time at least. All I really needed to know was that lipping it into tune was tiresome, and the alternate fingerings were also tiresome. I tried a bunch of different mouthpieces and even a Harrelson gap insert, nothing really made it playable for me. With work I could make it sound good, but I want a horn that works for me, not a horn that makes me work for it.
I think I want a Yamaha, probably the New York Sy gen 3 (YTR-9445NYSIII?). I hear they play in tune better than anything else in that caliber of instrument.
Big, open, dark, and in tune, that's what I'm looking for, at least in theory. Looking forward to trying it out to see.
$5g+ (after taxes) is ouch time though. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9032 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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You didn't like the horn you ordered because it was symphony oriented but then ordered a Yamaha New York? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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I think he means the horn he's purchasing is for symphony use/local orchestras.
It's interesting with the tuner, because I have a C that seems to play in tune with a tuner but there are certain notes I feel are off in a group (especially the D on the staff). |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Bought an S22CHD, not a keeper |
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kurth83 wrote: |
Big, open, dark, and in tune, that's what I'm looking for, at least in theory. Looking forward to trying it out to see.
. |
Sounds like you want a Bb...
All jokes aside, the C trumpet is a different instrument than the Bb trumpet, and your approach to playing it should reflect this. Even if all the intonation quirks were the same on C as Bb, it would still throw off your ear to hear these notes up a whole step. To help you get used to playing a C instrument, see if you can get together with a teacher, local pro, or friend who plays C trumpet, and play back and fourth to get used to the way a C trumpet plays and feels. You might want to try a C trumpet specific mouthpiece as well, like a Bach 1-1/2C with a 24 throat and 24 backbore. A lot of pros like larger throats on their C trumpet mouthpieces.
If you're set on replacing it with another C, you might want to check out the B&S Metropolitan C trumpet at J Landress Brass. Josh is a certified trumpet wizard, and the B&S horn is supposed to be one of the best C trumpets on the market (and it's only around $3k). |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Bought an S22CHD, not a keeper |
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Goby wrote: | kurth83 wrote: |
Big, open, dark, and in tune, that's what I'm looking for, at least in theory. Looking forward to trying it out to see.
. |
Sounds like you want a Bb...
All jokes aside, the C trumpet is a different instrument than the Bb trumpet, and your approach to playing it should reflect this. Even if all the intonation quirks were the same on C as Bb, it would still throw off your ear to hear these notes up a whole step. To help you get used to playing a C instrument, see if you can get together with a teacher, local pro, or friend who plays C trumpet, and play back and fourth to get used to the way a C trumpet plays and feels. You might want to try a C trumpet specific mouthpiece as well, like a Bach 1-1/2C with a 24 throat and 24 backbore. A lot of pros like larger throats on their C trumpet mouthpieces.
If you're set on replacing it with another C, you might want to check out the B&S Metropolitan C trumpet at J Landress Brass. Josh is a certified trumpet wizard, and the B&S horn is supposed to be one of the best C trumpets on the market (and it's only around $3k). |
Good advice, but your assumption that he isn't an experienced C player already isn't supported by what he has shared with us, since he doesn't indicate either way. You may have hit the nail on the head, but I would hate to see the thread derailed. |
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nltrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2019 Posts: 206 Location: Washington DC
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:32 am Post subject: |
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I own a S22CHD. Compared to the 229 I was using before, the intonation was heavenly on the Schilke. I’ve since moved on to a Yamaha Gen II NY. |
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Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 722 Location: Rhode Island, USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: |
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nltrumpet wrote: | I own a S22CHD. Compared to the 229 I was using before, the intonation was heavenly on the Schilke. |
I had the same experience. _________________ Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: |
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For a time I had a Malone modified Yamaha C that had better than average intonation. So much so that I played it for a while without the alternate fingerings near the top of the staff. Over time it became clear that the alternate fingerings played and sounded better so I sucked it up and learned to use and appreciate the alternates. I wouldn't hold out much hope for a horn that eliminates the need for alternate fingering. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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JGulyas Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Apr 2002 Posts: 726 Location: Roanoke, VA
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | For a time I had a Malone modified Yamaha C that had better than average intonation. So much so that I played it for a while without the alternate fingerings near the top of the staff. Over time it became clear that the alternate fingerings played and sounded better so I sucked it up and learned to use and appreciate the alternates. I wouldn't hold out much hope for a horn that eliminates the need for alternate fingering. |
I used to have a Malone C as well (6445HGS) and that thing played like a dream with no intonation issues. I sold it back in 2006 when I quit playing, and now that I'm playing again I'm kicking myself for selling it. Even talked to the guy I sold it to asking if I could buy it back but he had since sold it as well. Now I have an Eastman ETR530 and it plays pretty well as best I can tell with my weak chops. _________________ All the Best,
John
US Navy Bandsman 1996-2010 (Trumpet; Audio Engineer)
Mpc - Kanstul/Monette B6, Hammond Design custom "JG"
Bb - Yamaha 6335HGSII
C - Eastman ETR530
Picc - NoName Chinese |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Sigh... Big, dark sound.
Too bad you can't order a Kanstul 1510 anymore. Or a Unicorn-like Flip Oakes C trumpet. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:55 am Post subject: |
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JGulyas wrote: | cheiden wrote: | For a time I had a Malone modified Yamaha C that had better than average intonation. So much so that I played it for a while without the alternate fingerings near the top of the staff. Over time it became clear that the alternate fingerings played and sounded better so I sucked it up and learned to use and appreciate the alternates. I wouldn't hold out much hope for a horn that eliminates the need for alternate fingering. |
I used to have a Malone C as well (6445HGS) and that thing played like a dream with no intonation issues. I sold it back in 2006 when I quit playing, and now that I'm playing again I'm kicking myself for selling it. Even talked to the guy I sold it to asking if I could buy it back but he had since sold it as well. Now I have an Eastman ETR530 and it plays pretty well as best I can tell with my weak chops. |
I've been told that it's virtually impossible to make a modern-style C (essentially a cut-down Bb) trumpet that doesn't have the known intonation issues near the top of the staff. Malone's mods help a lot but don't eliminate the problems altogether, at least not on the horns I've tried. My dream horn is a Malone modified Bach 229/MC2 without the extended bell ferrule. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1531 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: S22HD not a keeper |
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Hello all
I owned an S22C for a while and did try the new S22HD. I found I liked a little more resistance in the C3HD better. For me, it also made the 4th partial intonation more manipulative depending on placement in the chord or if I was ascending or descending to it. I have C5L that plays very nicely. Yes, I do have to play with some alternate fingerings, but there is not a professional out there, that doesn't from time to time. And no, I am not a professional, i just watch and listen carefully. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1140 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Bought an S22CHD, not a keeper |
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kurth83 wrote: | It's going back, thank you WWBW for the marvelous return policy!
This is for symphony work, in local orchestras.
Unlike the S22HD (which is a great horn as expected), the intonation on the S22CHD was a bit too wonky for my taste. So away it goes.
I played it into a guitar tuner to check, although I didn't really need to, it just confirmed what my ears were telling me. I spent 3 days with it, so I gave it a little time at least. All I really needed to know was that lipping it into tune was tiresome, and the alternate fingerings were also tiresome. I tried a bunch of different mouthpieces and even a Harrelson gap insert, nothing really made it playable for me. With work I could make it sound good, but I want a horn that works for me, not a horn that makes me work for it.
I think I want a Yamaha, probably the New York Sy gen 3 (YTR-9445NYSIII?). I hear they play in tune better than anything else in that caliber of instrument.
Big, open, dark, and in tune, that's what I'm looking for, at least in theory. Looking forward to trying it out to see.
$5g+ (after taxes) is ouch time though. |
What is your experience with C trumpets? Is this your first time? Sounds like it. If so, every C trumpet will feel wonky and out of tune. Schilke C trumpets have excellent intonation, better than most. It is very likely that it is you that has intonation issues, not the horn.
Also, big and dark is about the opposite of what you want for a "symphony" horn. Brilliant, focused, and colorful are the attributes for which you should be looking. _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/ |
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Lawler Bb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1140 Location: Milwaukee, WI
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Bought an S22CHD, not a keeper |
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kurth83 wrote: |
Big, open, dark, and in tune, that's what I'm looking for, at least in theory. Looking forward to trying it out to see.
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Sounds to me you need a Ganter Rotary C-trumpet. Sold mine to a guy here on the forum. Great horn, very well made but too dark for me; I prefer bright sounding trumpets, happy with my Courtois C-trumpet mod. Delmotte _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9032 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Well, just for the sake of further discussion (harrumph), just what is a dark trumpet and what kind of orchestra's section is the OP wanting to fit in with? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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To the OP: You're a "comeback classical player" and you've talked about the lightweight Bb trumpets you currently own, but you've never mentioned what C trumpets you might have owned in the past.
Help the TH brain-trust out here: How much experience do you have with C trumpets, and which ones have you owned in the past? _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:19 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Well, just for the sake of further discussion (harrumph), just what is a dark trumpet? |
I guess Kurt means a dark sounding trumpet so that will be a trumpet with a fast tapered bell such as a Bach 72 bell _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)
Last edited by Manuel de los Campos on Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | Well, just for the sake of further discussion (harrumph), just what is a dark trumpet? |
I guess Kurt means a dark sounding trumpet so that will be a trumpet with a slow tapered bell such as a Bach 72 bell |
That's a fast taper - it expands more rapidly than others as you move down the length of the bell. This tends to impede the transmission of higher frequencies - as does softer metals like copper. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: |
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One might be remiss if the new Bach 190 series C trumpets are not tried.
There are some major symphony players testing and giving feedback on these new horns.
The M leadpipe designed by Mike Sachs is a good one to try.
R. Tomasek |
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