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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2627
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:33 pm Post subject: What parameters define a flugelhorn as a flugelhorn? |
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I've seen various configurations of flugelhorns, there are players who sound very flugel-like on trumpet and people whose sound on flugel isn't much different than a trumpet. Then there's things like a flumpet.
Are there specific measurements, parameters, ratios that define a particular horn as a flugel? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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ayryq Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 Posts: 356 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:05 am Post subject: |
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A flugelhorn is essentially a valved bugle.
It's hard to pin down anything more definite than bell size (bigger than cornet) and mouthpiece shape (deeper than trumpet).
I think shorter pre-valve tubing is typical, like a rotary.
Edit: Note I didn't say anything about proportion of conical tubing. Someone else can have that argument. _________________ Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:17 am Post subject: |
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I see flugelhorn as a piccolo tuba. I think it describes its architecture and sound pretty well.
I gather from looking at a variety of them that the designer starts with the bell flare and taper to establish the sound, then works backward through the horn to create a useable instrument. The best results have been when the tubing size diminishes to somewhere around 0.413" - 0.423". at the valve section. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I wonder how that definition includes German Flugelhorns. They are a different animal than the French Couesnon type Flugelhorn, but they're still Flugelhorns. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
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Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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Subtropical and Subpar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 656 Location: Here and there
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:06 am Post subject: |
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shofarguy wrote: | I see flugelhorn as a piccolo tuba. I think it describes its architecture and sound pretty well.
I gather from looking at a variety of them that the designer starts with the bell flare and taper to establish the sound, then works backward through the horn to create a useable instrument. The best results have been when the tubing size diminishes to somewhere around 0.413" - 0.423". at the valve section. |
I read somewhere years ago that in the taxonomy of brass instruments the flugelhorn is considered a piccolo or soprano tuba. _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1049 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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ayryq wrote: | It's hard to pin down anything more definite than bell size (bigger than cornet) and mouthpiece shape (deeper than trumpet). |
Given that you can get any mouthpiece shape for either flugel, cornet and trumpet, I'm kinda puzzled why the mouthpiece shape would be considered a property of an instrument. Receiver shape would propbably be more fitting, though putting a cornet receiever on a trumpet wouldn't instantly into a cornet either I suppose... |
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ayryq Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 Posts: 356 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Fair point. I was just reading "Fanfares and Finesse" by Elisa Koehler, and she devotes a chapter to the development of the bugle (including keyed bugles, flugelhorns, posthorns, and Corno da Caccia). Here's a quote from the beginning of the following chapter, on the cornet:
Quote: | Although [the cornet's] proportion of conical tubing is more pronounced than that of the modern trumpet, the bore profile of the cornet features a high degree of cylindrical tubing and is not as conical as the instruments of the bugle family. The mouthpiece of the cornet features a deep cup or funnel and plays a vital role in its unique sound. |
(Koehler, Elisa. Fanfares and Finesse: A Performer's Guide to Trumpet History and Literature. Indiana University Press, 2014. Page 62.) _________________ Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8975 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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The "classic" answer is that a trumpet is 2/3 cylindrical tubing and 1/3 conical (flared); a cornet is 1/3 cylindrical and 2/3 conical tubin; and, a flugelhorn is all conical tubing (continuously increasing in diameter). These days I think that's been blurred but the flugelhorns I've seen (including my own) all have a lot more conical tubing and big bell flare to help provide that "dark" sound.
FWIWM - Don _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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popTbop Regular Member
Joined: 23 Aug 2019 Posts: 34
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by popTbop on Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the differences in sound, excluding physical construction, is the mental concept of what the sound should be (body following the mind and all that), and mouthpiece selection. Put a peashooter mpc on a Flugelhorn and you'll get a trumpety sound. Put a deep, conical mpc on a trumpet and you'll get a Flugelhornish sound. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2358 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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The taper of a flugelhorn bell is very different than a trumpet or cornet. Modern Bb trumpets and cornets use basically the same mutes. You may have to sand the corks down more for a "tight" trumpet bell, or build them up for the most open bells (ironically enough including the Wild Thing trumpet), but it's the same mute body.
A flugelhorn can generally use small tenor trombone mutes. It can be argued that mutes specifically designed for flugelhorns work better, but it can also be pointed out that there's pretty much no point in putting a mute in a flugelhorn in the first place and essentially no literature written for muted flugelhorn... which probably explains why there aren't very many designed-specifically-for-flugelhorn mutes out there.
My point is, if you can't seat a small trombone mute in the bell it isn't a flugelhorn. If you can, it isn't a trumpet or cornet.
And yes, there are extreme examples that fall in the middle. If neither a trumpet nor a trombone mute fits, it's in the middle and I don't have an opinion. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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