Roll-out is as important as Roll-in!!!

[HJ]

Hi there,

In this forum about BE there is much said about the roll-in exercises in Jeffs book. For many players these are pretty hard to do. The concept is easy, but to get a good sound, tongue it, fexibility etc. is tough.

With my beginning students on the other hand, roll-in is the easiest thing. All the kids of about 9 or 10 years of age can play a high C with great ease after a few weeks. Really!!! For them the roll-out is much more difficult. To me this was an important but easy thing to do. BUT...that does not mean that it is not important. To get a balance you have to practice the extremes on a daily basis. Of course, the thing that is easy does not take so much practice time, but you still have to do it, to give a kind of counterweight.

The important thing of roll-out IMO is that it is the safest way to unlock the mouthcorners and play with the corners forward and inward. Students with serious chop problems cannot play rolled out. Check it!!! They lock the corners and get into trouble. With my students, the moment they know how to play a nice rolled out double pedal C they are on the right track. The tone opens up and their playing becomes easier and easier. For me the first time I was able to play a G above high C in more than fifteen years, was when I played roll-out #4. It even felt easy, and I did not expect it to feel this way!!! It really felt different from what I thought was necessary to play a high G. It is forward and inward. Check this: make an extreme kiss with your lips (I don't know an Enlish word for this position, but I mean extremely rolled out) then roll in your lips, don't change anything else. When your lips are rolled in what have you got? Right: a nice Lip Clamp. So rolled in while rolled out, haha.

Another thing is that the cushion gets really thick and strong. You can take a bit of mpc pressure, but more important the lips regain their freedom to make the roll-in movement. If your lips are squashed between the teeth and the mpc, how can you possibly roll in OR out. So you have to bring the lips forward first. Roll out!!!

Bert

[ This Message was edited by: HJ on 2003-11-28 05:30 ]

[Charlie Cheeseburger]

Bert-

Excellent post. I totally agree that Roll-Out is just as important as Roll-In, if not more so. With the Roll-Out you get a puckered, cushioned effect, with the bottom lip and corners forward and the lips sealing really well. It's a marvellous feeling of comfort and security that carries through to your playing as a whole, and it's the foundation on which the whole system is built. Sure, we need to get a balance, but IMO mastering the Roll-Out is more fundamental to the process.

Regards,

Andrew Lynn

PS. I hope your students realise how very fortunate they are that you are teaching them using the BE principles, with such intelligence and committment. Hopefully your posts will inspire others to do the same.

[ This Message was edited by: Charlie Cheeseburger on 2003-11-28 09:08 ]

[oj]

Excellent topic!

Jeff, what is the experience with your students in this regard?
The same as Bert, or?
What about your adult students?

On the Fundamentals Forum, I guy, Nathan, said the following:

"Double pedals are nearly impossible to play without using a great amount of air."

I told him this is not the case with the B.E. pedals. I also pointed him to page 60 and 61 in B.E. - hopefully he will order the book.

Nathan is not alone in his belief. Jeff list 6 common misunderstandings about pedals and No. 5 is Nathans.

"5. To improve your wind power."

But read what Callet says:
"After 45 minutes of double pedal tones, I was able to play from double pedal C to double high C. This was done with very light mouthpiece pressure on my lips."

This is really something else!

Ole


[ This Message was edited by: oj on 2003-11-28 15:17 ]

[Irving]

When you refer to rolling out and rolling in, does this mean that you roll in both the bottom AND the top lip? Or does it mean to just roll in the bottom lip?

[oj]

Both lips.

When rolling in, you hide the red part of both lips.
Roll out = complete "fish mouth".

Ole

[_dcstep]

I think it's all in the name of the method "Balanced Embouchure". Which one is harder and the most benefit to a player will depend on what bad habits were previously developed and need undoing for the experienced student, or the natural set up of the musculature and teeth in a new student.

I suspect that almost all students benefit a little more from one than the other. The fact that roll-out came easily to me doesn't diminish its importance but merely reflects that I'd worked on something similar in the past and my embouchure was basically rolled out. The roll in is much tougher for me because it's totally new after 46 years of playing. Yet, after just 1 1/2 weeks I can feel my setup moving toward "balance". In the middle of a third set last weekend, I rolled my lips in and hit a few F#s and Gs above high C, no problemo.

I could play them rolled-out in the past, but not as securely. I'm really excited about the prospects that'll come after I work a few more weeks.

Dave
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[jarrelainen]

Hi!

Just tried to do the extreme kiss and then roll in the lips, and what happened, yes a very easy lip squeak comes out when I blow.

So, my (stupid?) question is, could I start my lip clamp squeak this way, by doing the roll out, and while keeping the roll-out feel roll in the lips??

Just thought I'd post my experience when trying this...

Take care, JK

[HJ]

JK,

I think you discovered something very worthwhile, and yes if the lip squeek works for you this way, why not.

When I play roll-in #4 the four octave jump, I sometimes struggle to get the rolled in sound going. I don't give it too much attention and just slur down to the double pedal, and guess what:when I slur up to the rolled in position there is always a nice rolled in tone!!! I think this is exactly the same sensation that you have with the lip squeek. So, once again the roll-out is important, it makes the roll-in possible, whether you are playing or just trying the lip squeek.

Maybe a good suggestion for people that struggle with the lip squeek?
I 'll try it with a student of mine who has extreme difficulty with even the lip squeek. Thanks for reminding me,

Bert