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A Bb Trumpet that feels like a C


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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:29 pm    Post subject: A Bb Trumpet that feels like a C Reply with quote

Looking for a Bb Trumpet that plays more like my Yamaha 9445 C trumpet.

I just feel so much more comfortable playing the C than I ever have on any of my Bb trumpets. I notice now when I'm playing on Bb that it really feels like I'm walking on a tight rope trying not to fall off. The C just feels so much more secure and comfortable.

I don't know particularly what it is that makes that the case but when I go back to my Bach 37 I just don't feel comfortable. The C definitely feels like it has more resistance and I am able to 'relax against it'.

Could either look at trying a different leadpipe on the 37 or just trying out some different horns.

Suggestions?
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: A Bb Trumpet that feels like a C Reply with quote

done

Last edited by dstpt on Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a common experience for advancing C trumpet players. Have you tried the matching 9335 model to your instrument? It may come closer to what you are looking for, though it is still unlikely to be completely satisfactory…
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bike&ed wrote:
This is a common experience for advancing C trumpet players. Have you tried the matching 9335 model to your instrument? It may come closer to what you are looking for, though it is still unlikely to be completely satisfactory…


Haven't tried the 9335 Chicago but yes, it should probably be my first stop.

Honestly I've always felt uncomfortable on the Bb. For example, if I take Haydn first movement and play it in concert F (or concert Eb) on the C, it feels pretty good. If I play it as written in concert Eb on my Bb it feels a bit like holding a greased pig, trying not to drop it.

As you said, I think it's pretty normal for a lot of folks that play mostly C Trumpet to feel the same way. The instrument is just easier to control.

But I would very much love to have more of that C trumpet feel just in Bb!
I think the closest I've come in terms of that feeling of security was a Selmer Paris 24B

A few possibilities that came to mind that could be worth trying:

- Bach #6 leadpipe on my 37
- Medium bore Bach 37?
- Yamaha Shew
- Schilke... Not sure which model.
- ?[/list]
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:


A few possibilities that came to mind that could be worth trying:

- Bach #6 leadpipe on my 37
- Medium bore Bach 37?
- Yamaha Shew


I'm pretty sure your C trumpet has a lighter bell than your Strad. It is also larger bore .462 vs. .459. The Bb options you list will probably be more restrictive for you compared to your C. (I'm working with the assumption that your C is playing more open than your Bb. Is that the case?)

The control issues you mentioned on your Bb could be related to mouthpiece gap. Measure the gap on your Strad and on your Yamaha. It would be great if you could also measure the venturi on both.

Things you could try with your present Bb if it is more restrictive than your C.

1. Demo some leadpipes. I would start with the Bach 43. Again - be sure to check the gap (You can get these on trial from mouthpieceexpress.com and other stores.)
2. Go to a component system for your mouthpieces - top and backbore. Try some different backbores. Most players will use a mouthpiece with a different throat and backbore on their C than they use on their Bb. (Again - check the gap.)
3. Consider an M/K custom tuning slide. A .462 ID Bb slide might make a big difference for you. He might have these as stock. If so, you might get a trial.

If you did all of the above, you would probably be out a little less than $600. Less if you can find some used items. It will take a while to sort it out this way.

Certainly, if you are comfortable spending two or three thousand dollars on a used or new trumpet - that would be an easier route to take. Just don't forget to "check the gap".
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would adapt to both. Period. But . .evidently you don't.

I don't see the Yamaha C as being very comparable to the Bach Strad. It's not only cheaper, but you might find it shows characteristics you would look for in a new Bb, by starting out with a variety of mouthpiece bores, etc. Pickett, AR and Warburton have modular systems.

You can change mouthpieces, then lead pipes (which will change your Bach-are you sure you want to do that?), then lastly, a new Bb.
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So for a long time I've never felt "as comfortable" on Bb as on C trumpets. I've played "a few" and none of them felt quite right (either in the hand, response, something).

What I've done recently is accept that fact, and find a few Bbs that let me sound the way I want for the situations where I need Bb, and spend the rest of the time on the C. Around 95+% of my playing (and therefore practice) is on the C trumpet, so trying to search for a Bb hasn't been worth it.

I've never gotten along with the 37 bell either but that's a separate issue
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Andy Cooper"]
Trumpetingbynurture wrote:


I'm pretty sure your C trumpet has a lighter bell than your Strad. It is also larger bore .462 vs. .459. The Bb options you list will probably be more restrictive for you compared to your C. (I'm working with the assumption that your C is playing more open than your Bb. Is that the case?)


Objectively the C is a larger bore, but subjectively it feels tighter and more locked in.


Quote:
So for a long time I've never felt "as comfortable" on Bb as on C trumpets. I've played "a few" and none of them felt quite right (either in the hand, response, something).

Exactly. I assume it's why most classical players are really C trumpet players who occasionally play Bb if they have to.

Quote:
What I've done recently is accept that fact, and find a few Bbs that let me sound the way I want for the situations where I need Bb, and spend the rest of the time on the C. Around 95+% of my playing (and therefore practice) is on the C trumpet, so trying to search for a Bb hasn't been worth it.

This is more or less where I am at as well, although every time I pick up the Bb I always wonder if it has to be that way.

Quote:

I've never gotten along with the 37 bell either but that's a separate issue

What Bbs are you playing currently?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are playing a horn that is built around a heavier bell with a lighter body. The DNA is a mix of Bach and Schilke, but the Bach traits dominate in the Bbs. The C you have is a little looser, but still imposes that energy demand you like pushing against. There are multiple choices for Bbs that will match those characteristics (Taylor for instance), but they all leave one huge one open - intonation.

You have become used to and comfortable with the intonation quirks of a C trumpet. As such, any Bb is going to feel a bit unpredictable because your set is for the idiosyncrasies of a C, not a Bb. That cannot be fixed with equipment.

The only fix for that, as kehaulani hinted at in his first line, is to adapt. At the end of the day, you cannot repeal the laws of physics and a Bb will never feel like a C in terms of setting for a given note.
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also had this problem I found that converting the C temporarily into a Bb with a set of Bb slides solved this for me. The trumpet was a large bore New York Bach.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: A Bb Trumpet that feels like a C Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Looking for a Bb Trumpet that plays more like my Yamaha 9445 C trumpet.

I just feel so much more comfortable playing the C than I ever have on any of my Bb trumpets. I notice now when I'm playing on Bb that it really feels like I'm walking on a tight rope trying not to fall off. The C just feels so much more secure and comfortable.

I don't know particularly what it is that makes that the case but when I go back to my Bach 37 I just don't feel comfortable. The C definitely feels like it has more resistance and I am able to 'relax against it'.

Could either look at trying a different leadpipe on the 37 or just trying out some different horns.

Suggestions?


Yamaha 8345 LB , easy to find and same bore like your C trumpet.

Regards
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would definitely start with the Yamaha Chicago. The way they pulled the leadpipe brace toward the player in almost a C trumpet position really makes that pipe feel a lot shorter than it is and it definitely slots like a C trumpet for me.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want MORE resistance in your Strad - a tighter backbore for your mouthpiece or the opposite of what I suggested with the tuning slide. Get a smaller ID tuning slide for your Bach. M/K could provide one. (The Warburton 6 backbore is a nice dark sounding backbore that is tighter than a Bach #10.)

Yet again - check the mouthpiece gap on your Bach. You may need more. Do the slip of paper on the mouthpiece shank and see if things get better. Increasing gap is easy - either by getting a mouthpiece with Reeves Sleeves or by replacing the receiver if it is worn.

(I admit to a blind spot - not being a stock Bach 37/25 Strad fan, it would never occur to me that someone would want something more resistant - and I frequently play on a .438 bore trumpet and cornet.)

Of course, new horns are really nice...
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
This is more or less where I am at as well, although every time I pick up the Bb I always wonder if it has to be that way.

I think I'm just more picky and accepting of compromises of it more than anything - some of the Bbs I've played I wasn't necessarily in love with, but let me do what I needed to do with them. I guess the inverse of how many people feel about C trumpets

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
What Bbs are you playing currently?


Del Quadro Grizzly, Benge 3X, and Adams A10 have been the main Bbs I've played over the last 5 years or so. All of those are radically different than my C trumpets (Akright conversion Bach 239 and now a B&S Metropolitan).
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blownchops
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to be that guy, but I feel like the answer is pretty obvious.
Both the yamaha NY and CH Bbs are made to be mated to their C trumpet counterparts.

That being said, my gen 1 NY Bb does not play like a C at all. Maybe try the Chicago Bb.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from the 9335, any other suggestions?
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loudog
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like my Bb plays a LOT like a C trumpet, which is why I like it.

Bach Stradivarius 37 bell, full Ken Larson conversion with the NY wrap.

Give Ken a call.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about a Bach Large Bore with a 25 bell? The .462 bore of the Bach is similar to your C trumpet and the 25 bell taper provides a focused, compact sound.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played a Larson B flat years ago that seemed very "orchestral" to me. Good horns.
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jazzvuu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Yamaha Chicago Bb is going to be the closest answer to your request in my opinion but no Bb will ever feel exactly like a C trumpet.

One of my professors in college said (and I find it true if you have a good horn) that it is easier to get a brilliant sound on C trumpet over Bb. The Bb timbre is just a little tubbier/fatter which is good for that characteristic and sound image. If you are used to and default to that brilliant sound that is more natural on C trumpet, the Bb will always feel less responsive and not quite as center as the C. The color on C trumpet general just stands out more where as Bb will have more ease of blending (obviously there are commercial style horns that sizzle but that is not quite the same brilliance of the orchestra C timbre).

I switch to Yamaha horns when I first tried the Chicago C gen 1 and bought one on the spot from Yamaha at TMEA. I have since changed over to the gen 2 NY YS model C trumpet and have a Vizzutti gen 2 Bb. They are both amazing horns but my C will also have more brilliance for less effort than the Bb and the Bb will always sound richer than my C. Just need to pick the sound image I need/want for what I am playing.
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