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kurth83 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2021 Posts: 73
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:34 pm Post subject: School me on a good D/Eb |
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I have an old Kanstul D (wonderful horn), lost the Eb slides a long time ago (loaned out, never came back), so as a comeback player I need a new D/Eb.
Looking for an orchestral horn, sounds like a Bb, (aka Susan Slaughter's recommendation).
Would be nice if it could do lighter work too though, like Haydn and Hummel.
The models I have heard of are Schilke, Yamaha, and Blackburn. I am currently under the impression the Blackburn is the best (feel free to correct me if I am misinformed), and it comes in two bore sizes, so which one?
I like horns on the looser slotting side, i.e. good intonation is important to me, the less I have to work to get it to play in tune the better. |
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irith Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 879
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Whichever Yamaha it is that has the "S" shaped pipe is a very very good horn that's more oriented towards orchestral work, I'd give that one a long look.
Schilke is great of course but might be a little light for mostly orchestral use.
I liked the Shires Eb I tried a ton, and to me it seemed a bit heftier in sound than the other tuning bell Eb's, like the Schilke.
Haven't played a Blackburn Eb but their horns are excellent as a rule.
You could also look into Eb conversions using cut-down larger trumpets, which will generally sound bigger thanks to the bell from those instruments. I know Charlie Melk does these, among others. _________________ Bach, Schilke, Pickett mostly |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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irith wrote: | Whichever Yamaha it is that has the "S" shaped pipe is a very very good horn that's more oriented towards orchestral work, I'd give that one a long look.
Schilke is great of course but might be a little light for mostly orchestral use.
I liked the Shires Eb I tried a ton, and to me it seemed a bit heftier in sound than the other tuning bell Eb's, like the Schilke.
Haven't played a Blackburn Eb but their horns are excellent as a rule.
You could also look into Eb conversions using cut-down larger trumpets, which will generally sound bigger thanks to the bell from those instruments. I know Charlie Melk does these, among others. |
Are any of the horns you recommended offered in D/Eb? I read the OP’s post to mean he was looking for a convertible, but I could have misunderstood. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2042 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Consider a Shires 6F. The blow and sound are much closer to that of a C trumpet than other Eb/D trumpets I've tried.
The Schilke E3L is another fine horn, though for me it had more of a small horn feel to it compared to the Shires.
I haven't played the Blackburn Eb/D, but the Bb and C trumpets I've played from Blackburn were excellent horns. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I like the old Yamaha 761s (6610 is the successor, and pretty close). The design is adapted from the Benge that Schilke played on. Like many Schilke horns though, intonation is up to the player, so there are not 2 sets of valve slides and you are expected to set for the note. If you can though, wow what response and sound. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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F.E. Olds Nut Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 343 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: |
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I have the Schilke E2, and with in my (limited) use sounds a bit more round and more orchestral than the E3L. _________________ Del Quadro "The Mother" |
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RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I just built (had built for me) an Eb with a Yamaha 9636 ("s" shaped) leadpipe, .460 bore Carol valve block and a Bach 239 bell with very similar criteria in mind, and and I think I was pretty successful in getting there.
With a mouthpiece that matches my Bb/C setup, the horn easily blends with other big horns and with a slightly shallower piece with a more narrow throat, the horn becomes significantly lighter in feel and sound. Intonation is spot on with the bigger mouthpiece, probably because that's what I'm most comfortable with. The top-of-staff G and A do get a little sharp with the lighter setup, but again, I think it's me...
I don't have D slides made yet, but I will be getting them done now that I know the horn is a success. Even with the labor to put it together, and this extra set of slides, the final cost will be significantly less than a new stock horn of similar design.
I definitely prefer the "s" shaped Eb leadpipes now. Being able to tune at the front of the horn seems to add some stability and having a water key is a convenient "nice-to-have." The Schagerl Phoibe is another horn with a similar shaped pipe, and I have seen Spada conversions with that shape as well. _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
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Jon Kaplan Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 300 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | irith wrote: | Whichever Yamaha it is that has the "S" shaped pipe is a very very good horn that's more oriented towards orchestral work, I'd give that one a long look.
Schilke is great of course but might be a little light for mostly orchestral use.
I liked the Shires Eb I tried a ton, and to me it seemed a bit heftier in sound than the other tuning bell Eb's, like the Schilke.
Haven't played a Blackburn Eb but their horns are excellent as a rule.
You could also look into Eb conversions using cut-down larger trumpets, which will generally sound bigger thanks to the bell from those instruments. I know Charlie Melk does these, among others. |
Are any of the horns you recommended offered in D/Eb? I read the OP’s post to mean he was looking for a convertible, but I could have misunderstood. |
Yes, all of the mentioned options are available in Eb/D! For those interested, the aforementioned Yamaha is the Yamaha 9636 Custom Eb/D Trumpet, which is meant as a companion to the Yamaha Chicago Gen 1 Bb and C trumpet.
The Schilke E3L is the standard recommendation for Eb/D trumpets, and for good reason. I agree with the assessment that the typical configuration is a bit light sounding for the standard orchestral use cases, but many people have had Bach 229 or 239 C trumpet bells converted for use with these instruments since the tunable bell configuration makes it so easy to trade out bells.
The Yamaha 9610 tunable bell Eb/D is another common option, similar to the Schilke E3L.
The Charlie Melk Eb/D conversions are quite popular for orchestral playing, and are a bit more affordable compared to the other options IF you have a donor trumpet ready to go - typically a Bach 229 or 239 C trumpet, but you can also use lots of other donor trumpets you might have lying around.
The Blackburn Eb/D I have not personally played, but having seen expert orchestral players like Susan Slaughter, Matt Muckey, etc performing on one of these (the 3 or 4 valve editions) I can only assume they find it quite usable in that context.
I'm not personally familiar with the Shires Eb/D trumpets but they are certainly well regarded by players I know who have them. Good luck on your journey! _________________ 2nd Trumpet, Charlotte Symphony Orchestra
2nd Trumpet, Central City Opera Orchestra |
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Robson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Posts: 666 Location: Sao Paulo, Brazil
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm also looking for a big orchestral sound on a Eb trumpet, just like you.
That's my list:
1st - Blackburn.
2nd - Bach/Melk.
3rd - Yamaha 9636.
4th - Bach 189 XL bore
5th - 4 valve B&S
If I had money I would buy a Blackburn, that's why I have a Bach/Melk now a days... _________________ Robson Adabo de Mello
1 Corinthians 14:8 (KJV)
"For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" |
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ohiotpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 988
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: School me on a good D/Eb |
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kurth83 wrote: | I have an old Kanstul D (wonderful horn), lost the Eb slides a long time ago (loaned out, never came back), so as a comeback player I need a new D/Eb.
Looking for an orchestral horn, sounds like a Bb, (aka Susan Slaughter's recommendation).
Would be nice if it could do lighter work too though, like Haydn and Hummel.
The models I have heard of are Schilke, Yamaha, and Blackburn. I am currently under the impression the Blackburn is the best (feel free to correct me if I am misinformed), and it comes in two bore sizes, so which one?
I like horns on the looser slotting side, i.e. good intonation is important to me, the less I have to work to get it to play in tune the better. |
Why not have a set of Eb slide made for your Kanstul instead?. Might be cheaper. Check in with BAC. They may have the ORIGINAL KANSUL jigs to remake these slides,
https://www.coolisbac.com/restoration _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by. |
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nltrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2019 Posts: 206 Location: Washington DC
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I played on a Yamaha 9630 and it was a fabulous horn. It’s their 4-valve model, but it responded extremely well despite the extra weight. It’s a shame they discontinued it, amazing sound. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I have the B&S Challenger II and it's a greathorn. Both sides (though I have only used the D side to practice - not a lot of calls for it) _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1011 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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I have owned basically every normal configuration of Eb/D trumpet with the exception of the Blackburn and the 4-valve Stomvi. I continue to be impressed by the Yamaha YTR-9636. Huge sound, great intonation, and super versatile. I have one with a custom rotary third valve slide that gives me the full Bb range and another that can be configured as either a C with ascending D or Eb slides.
HTH
Ben |
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kurth83 Regular Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2021 Posts: 73
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yes the Yamaha YTR-9636 appears to be the best match of the Yamahas for what I want. I think the .459" bore lets you know it's design is for an orchestral sound.
I guess it comes down to when I can get either a Blackburn or a Yamaha, anything coming in by boat these days seems to be a 4-6 month wait. Blackburns are local, so I need to check the lead times on those.
This thread was interesting too:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1359268 |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1011 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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You might reach out to the eBay seller Quinn the Eskimo. He frequently has the Yamahas...
HTH
Ben |
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picctpt33 Regular Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2019 Posts: 96
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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The blackburns are great, though expensive |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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If you want it to sound like a Bb, then you can cross things off easily. I have FOH d these work well.
Kanstul 921 - with the S bend leadpipe.
B&S 4 valve Jk model E/Eb.
Thein mh 4 Valve piston Eb/ whatever key you like.
All have a much bigger Bb-ish sound than the standard Schilke style…
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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Shaft Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 985
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Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:46 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]
The Yamaha 9610 tunable bell Eb/D is another common option, similar to the Schilke E3L.
journey![/quote]
The 9610 is what I play.....it has a light delicate ringing sound more like a solo or chamber instrument. Definitely NOT like an orchestral Bb....some time this year I’m going to go on a safari to find a Bb that has a similar tonal quality to the 9610. |
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