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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:15 pm Post subject: Amado Waterkeys |
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My current horn has amado water keys and I've had it for about 2 years now. I am finding some things I don't enjoy about them and wanted to let others know.
1. When I go to empty the main tuning slide, I'm blowing and blowing, and water still comes out. They don't really empty completely or efficiently. Also a little bit more messy.
2. If they get stuck or dirty, they are difficult to disassemble for a non-repairman.
3. Recently I noticed my horn seemed a little stuffy, like a valve was misaligned or there was an airleak. I looked at the waterkeys and visually they were sealed, opened and closed, and seemed fine. I ended up cleaning the whole horn (which I need to do) because I figured maybe something was building up in there.
Turns out the waterkey was in fact just slightly out of position after all, and while it visually seemed to seal, it was leaking.
I think I'd rather have traditional waterkeys and just replace the corks occasionally. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like Amados. I got M/K Drawing & Bending to make me a slide with a conventional water key. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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There have been quite a few discussions on TH about Amado water keys. Many really dislike them, as you do.
A couple of things to consider on your challenges getting all the water out. Emptying the water works best when the spout on the key is vertically oriented. Also blowing lightly works better than blowing hard. Overblowing tends to blow the water past the opening.
You might also inspect the slide to ensure there aren’t any burrs or solder blobs blocking the water. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2046 Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I dislike Amado-style water keys for all of the reasons you've listed. I had one fly apart on me just before I headed on stage for a performance. You can quickly jury-rig a fix for just about any problem with a lever-style water key. |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I've had amado water keys on some of my horns for years. I coat the piston with STP Oil Treatment. Never had any problems. Sometimes you might need to run a wire through the open water key to push out gunk. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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Shifty Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 250 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'll bump a post I made a few years ago and add some commentary. The previously quoted prices have gone up a bit, but still aren't bad.
Folks talk about the problem being that Amados need lubrication. I find that the one on my third valve slide is self-lubricating from valve oil and never needs cleaning outside of the cleaning the horn gets. The one on the tuning slide will get sticky/stuck whether I lubricate it or not because my saliva is like library paste. I need to clean dried saliva off my mouthpiece rim after every session.
There's really no excuse for claiming that cleaning an Amado is too hard, or that it's too easy to lose parts. With the right tools (and spare parts if needed) it's easier than changing a cork.
Albanycountyfasteners.com sells both the HO25 c clips in stainless steel and the exact set of pliers to do the job. With a jury-rigged setup, you need three hands to avoid having parts fly around the room. With the right tool you can just stick a small Phillips screwdriver against the hole in the disk to remove the pressure and use the other hand to remove the clip. Reverse to install. And much less chance of buggering the clip itself.
HO-25SS 1/4" Internal Retaining Ring - Stainless Steel - Qty-25 now $13.00
RPS-100 Internal Standard Pliers - 1/4" through 5/16" Ring Size now $27.75 _________________ Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6191
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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There are three issues here: the design, the quality of manufacture and the maintenance.
Amado waterkey had originally been designed by Mr. Amado with a sealing spring-loaded piston held in the key casing by a threaded cover. To make it cheaper, however, the threaded cover was replaced by a circlip that would fit into a circular groove in the key casing.
It is the circlip that causes the disassembly to be difficult, dangerous (need to have eye protection when working) and complicated - one has to use circlip pliers and open the key inside a plastic bag in case the circlip flies away. In a rush of the last moment before the performance, one does not have the luxury of doing this work as slowly as needed and would normally not have the requisite tools, spare parts and lighting at hand.
The quality of manufacturing is absolutely critical for Amados. Fabricated with too loose tolerances, they leak air. Fabricated with too tight tolerances, they get easily stuck when dry or dirty. Pick your choice.
Getzen has Amados with circlips done "just right" so that they do not leak air and do not get stuck - given constant oiling and cleaning.
In Carol Brass horns, Amados are made according to the original design with a threaded key cover - these are a breeze to take apart and to maintain. They do not leak air, either.
Other makers can be worse. One music store I visited had a new Blessing flugelhorn with a seized (open!) Amado waterkey on the main tube. You could not play anything on that horn. The store did not have tools nor anyone to quickly fix the horn (they just had disposed off their in-store instrument repair).
Any Amado will eventually get stuck if enough gunk is caught between the waterkey casing and piston, or if solid material gets caught at the edge of the water shedding hole and is pushed between the mating surfaces. Once the key is stuck, the ease of disassembly comes again to the forefront.
In summary, Amados are prone to failure unless meticulously fabricated and maintained. They also look unsightly. No wonder they are used less frequently than the regular lever waterkeys. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | There are three issues here: the design, the quality of manufacture and the maintenance.
Amado waterkey had originally been designed by Mr. Amado with a sealing spring-loaded piston held in the key casing by a threaded cover. To make it cheaper, however, the threaded cover was replaced by a circlip that would fit into a circular groove in the key casing.
It is the circlip that causes the disassembly to be difficult, dangerous (need to have eye protection when working) and complicated - one has to use circlip pliers and open the key inside a plastic bag in case the circlip flies away. In a rush of the last moment before the performance, one does not have the luxury of doing this work as slowly as needed and would normally not have the requisite tools, spare parts and lighting at hand.
The quality of manufacturing is absolutely critical for Amados. Fabricated with too loose tolerances, they leak air. Fabricated with too tight tolerances, they get easily stuck when dry or dirty. Pick your choice.
Getzen has Amados with circlips done "just right" so that they do not leak air and do not get stuck - given constant oiling and cleaning.
In Carol Brass horns, Amados are made according to the original design with a threaded key cover - these are a breeze to take apart and to maintain. They do not leak air, either.
Other makers can be worse. One music store I visited had a new Blessing flugelhorn with a seized (open!) Amado waterkey on the main tube. You could not play anything on that horn. The store did not have tools nor anyone to quickly fix the horn (they just had disposed off their in-store instrument repair).
Any Amado will eventually get stuck if enough gunk is caught between the waterkey casing and piston, or if solid material gets caught at the edge of the water shedding hole and is pushed between the mating surfaces. Once the key is stuck, the ease of disassembly comes again to the forefront.
In summary, Amados are prone to failure unless meticulously fabricated and maintained. They also look unsightly. No wonder they are used less frequently than the regular lever waterkeys. | Thank you for all of this information. I'm also not a big fan of the look. I'm considering getting a main tuning slide with a standard waterkey. My horn doesn't really collect water in the third valve slide so I'll probably just leave that one alone. |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 615 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:52 am Post subject: |
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My Getzen 900 will occasionally collect water in the main slide. A little blast of canned air fixes it without fail. It drains just as well as my horn with standard keys 99% of the time.
I lube it with a drop of very light oil (Doc's Juice) and it gets a bath every month. I make sure to flush the Amados out under the spigot. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:25 am Post subject: |
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"Easy"? One man's easy is another man's annoyance, if downright tricky, and not worth the bother. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Lol - one of the reasons I long lusted for a Severinsen Eterna - besides that Doc played one - were what I perceived as those modern, "space age" push-button spit valves. I thought they were cool as heck then and still do. The Amados on my approximately circa 1970 Eterna probably aren't as fresh as they were new but work fine if kept cleaned and lubed. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 258
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Amado water keys work wonderfully if you practice good trumpet hygiene:
1. Before playing, wash your mouth out thoroughly to remove residual sugars, starches, and acids that cause build up of bacteria and red rot.
2. After playing, dry you horn out by blowing condensation from all 4 slides and swabbing the lead pipe (and/or blowing through a Spitball through each air passage) again to prevent build up of bacteria and red rot.
3. Whenever you oil your valves, put a drop of oil into the Amado valves and/or down the lead pipe followed by some air to coat the interior of your horns with some oil.
After over a decade of using Amado water keys, I have taken them apart only once just to see what gunk might have collected within them. However, I found them clean inside. So, with proper trumpet hygiene, Amado water keys work flawlessly.
Amado keys' "Achilles Heel" does not arise from their design; it arises from playing with sugars, starches, and acids in our mouthes and providing a wet environment where biological and chemical reactions can take place between anything that we leave in the horn. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:53 am Post subject: |
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JWG wrote: | Amado water keys work wonderfully if you practice good trumpet hygiene:
1. Before playing, wash your mouth out thoroughly to remove residual sugars, starches, and acids that cause build up of bacteria and red rot.
2. After playing, dry you horn out by blowing condensation from all 4 slides and swabbing the lead pipe (and/or blowing through a Spitball through each air passage) again to prevent build up of bacteria and red rot.
3. Whenever you oil your valves, put a drop of oil into the Amado valves and/or down the lead pipe followed by some air to coat the interior of your horns with some oil.
After over a decade of using Amado water keys, I have taken them apart only once just to see what gunk might have collected within them. However, I found them clean inside. So, with proper trumpet hygiene, Amado water keys work flawlessly.
Amado keys' "Achilles Heel" does not arise from their design; it arises from playing with sugars, starches, and acids in our mouthes and providing a wet environment where biological and chemical reactions can take place between anything that we leave in the horn. |
So to sum up the post, Amado water keys require some players to completely change their routines, unlike other more common options which are not similarly susceptible, but this doesn’t arise from their design.
I wonder what else it could be?
Note that I personally don’t have an issue with them. I like the look. And much of the advice in the quoted post is just good routines to have and maintain. |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1551 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I am a fan of Amado water keys and I agree about trumpet hygiene and maintenance.
Lots of times when you empty an Amado, you do not need to blow at all, just hold the horn at the proper angle and open the key, the condensation will just fall out. Blowing lightly gets more most times, but the quick silent drop is usually enough and very useful. No noise.
Just like you have to be aware of the condition of your standard keys -- cork condition, etc., you should be aware of the condition of your Amados. Regular oiling goes a long way. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Bb Cornet: Getzen 800 DLXS
Pic: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Std
Bass Tr: BAC Custom
Nat. Tr: Nikolai Mänttäri Morales Haas replica |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:50 pm Post subject: Amado keys |
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Here we go again...
If you don't like either the look or function of the Amado waterkey just change them to your favorite lever type key.And if you think maintenance on an Amado key is hard, give me your opinion when you have to change a hairpin spring on the lever type. And as good as the Carol Brass version is with the screw end cap, they also went a bit larger with the hole to 1/8th inch. I prefer the Carol Brass keys and I would say the same to Ray Amado if he were still alive. Ray's son is in charge of the waterkey production these days and maintains strict tolerances with the people producing them. The original design did indeed call for a screw end cap and yes, it was cost prohibitive for production. Same for the nipple exit that was individually silver soldered in place which were used initially.
The design Ray did for DEG on his keys utilized a snap-on plastic end cap. Monette uses a similar key these days and removing the plastic end cap with an Exacto knife is easy but you will need to replace the plastic end cap as they generally get destroyed when removing them. I re-work the standard Amado keys on my lathe cutting a groove on the end to accommodate the plastic end cap which Ray's son was kind enough to send me all remaining pieces of. They were made in silver and gold colored plastic and circlips and end plates are a thing of the past after this change.
I will say once again, crud will end up inside the piston groove and no amount of brushing inside the slides will remove it. Without disassembling the key, a can of air used for cleaning computers aimed into the exit hole with the key depressed does a good job of dislodging any crud hiding behind the piston. And as tolerances are very tight, valve oil into the hole and around the piston end whenever you oil the valves is a good idea.
And why have none of the anti-Amado people here on the forum mentioned the actual idea Ray designed his key for? It was for acoustic reasons with the added advantage of having a coil spring that is never under stress until the piston is depressed unlike the hairpin springs on lever type keys which are always under stress. Ever hear of a valve spring breaking?
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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As a great big fan of Getzen trumpets I like Amado waterkeys.
I know a lot of trumpetplayers who very dislike them but actually they dislike them because they do not know how to operate them properly.
The trick is that you have to empty your trumpet with your left hand: just squize with your left hand both the Amado keys while blowing softly through the instrument whiggeling the valves.
And that's all _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Amado keys |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: |
valve oil into the hole and around the piston end whenever you oil the valves is a good idea.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
Even though it isn't necessary very often, I hate taking apart Amado keys.
For the last few years, I've been oiling like Tony said every time I oil the valves.
I've had no problems at all, and haven't felt a need to take them apart. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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JWG wrote: |
3. Whenever you oil your valves, put a drop of oil into the Amado valves
After over a decade of using Amado water keys, I have taken them apart only once just to see what gunk might have collected within them. However, I found them clean inside. So, with proper trumpet hygiene, Amado water keys work flawlessly.
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Oh and credit JWG on this principle also. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6191
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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Of course, replacing a broken hairpin spring can be more dangerous than replacing a circlip. However, stopgap repair of a lever key with a rubber band will do the trick for the duration of a concert. In comparison, an Amado key, when stuck open, is not easily repairable. |
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