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Mr._Buttersmile New Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2021 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject: Playing when chops are tired? |
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I'm still a relative beginner on the trumpet (started less than a year ago), and though I never apply more mouthpiece pressure than needed, my chops get tired quite fast. I'd love to practice and play more, but I'm afraid this would only worsen my technique(what usually happens when I chop out is my attacks begin to sound sloppy and everything goes out of pitch, making everything sound 'weak' if I don't adjust the amount of effort I put into it), and let that be one of the main things I'm currently working on... any thoughts on this?
Sorry for any grammar mistakes. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 693 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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After only a year, I would recommend shorter playing sessions, actually. The idea is to put the horn down before you tire out. Get a cup of ice water to drink keep your swelling down. After a couple of hours, practice some more. The point is not to have to fight lip fatigue, using shorter but more sessions.
Over time, you should be able to stretch the sessions out and develop more technique and endurance without damaging your chops. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Playing when chops are tired? |
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Mr._Buttersmile wrote: | I'm still a relative beginner on the trumpet (started less than a year ago), and though I never apply more mouthpiece pressure than needed, my chops get tired quite fast. ... |
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I might not be understanding you correctly ...
Do your lips feel actual pain from the mouthpiece pressure?
It is typical for the embouchure (chops) muscles to become fatigued, and to not function properly, after playing for a while. But there should not be any real pain or injury to your lip tissue.
It is important to learn how to coordinate and adjust mouthpiece pressure on BOTH the upper and lower lip. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2044 Location: USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Playing with tired chops offers diminishing returns, at best. Your endurance will be limited at the early stage of playing. One way to maximize your practice time is to...rest more. Make sure you are taking short breaks between exercises and divide your practice into several short sessions. You'll probably find that you can spend more actual playing time by doing those shorter sessions and resting between exercises. As time goes on, your sessions will become longer. |
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Mr._Buttersmile New Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2021 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Playing when chops are tired? |
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[/quote]
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I might not be understanding you correctly ...
Do your lips feel actual pain from the mouthpiece pressure?[/quote]
Thanks for replying. I never feel any pain in my chops from playing a lot, only fatigue, just like my arm and shoulder muscles would feel after a set of push ups |
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Mr._Buttersmile New Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2021 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I guess then I'm just going to stick with what I'm already doing, which is shorter sessions spread over the day, but stop each session before instead of after I'm tired, and just wait for my endurance to improve. |
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JWG Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2011 Posts: 258
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:53 am Post subject: |
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My "trick" for playing with tired chops is as follows:
As you feel your face muscles fatigue due to lactic acid buildup, compensate by remembering your fundamentals for wind production.
1. Sit up as tall as you can;
2. Lift your elbows away from your rib cage to free up your rib expansion;
3. Breathe deeper and/or use the double breath technique (i.e., take your deepest breath and then take another breath on top of that);
4. Hold your trumpet up to your optimal angle (as determined by the angle you naturally use when mouthpiece buzzing);
5. Use your core muscles to squeeze your lower organs to press upward against your lungs to create adequate wind pressure; and
6. Relax your body and focus on resonating sympathetically with the standing wave in your horn.
Doing all of these things helps me avoid muscle fatigue and/or alleviate muscle fatigue when it happens, because my face muscles often become fatigued due to trying to over-compensate for poor wind production. _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb and C with 1.5 TCC, XT, C, C-O, O, & L mouthpieces
Bach 183S (undersprung valves & straight taper pipe) with 1.5 Flip Oakes XF |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I usually recommend only practicing when you still feel fresh, so that bad habits don't creep in. But I am sure every great trumpet player has done a lot of playing on worn out chops and there is probably something to be gained from putting that kind of time in.
It's more important that your brain isn't tired. You need to be mentally focused and aware of what is going on when you are playing the trumpet. |
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Mr._Buttersmile New Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2021 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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JWG wrote: | My "trick" for playing with tired chops is as follows:
As you feel your face muscles fatigue due to lactic acid buildup, compensate by remembering your fundamentals for wind production.
1. Sit up as tall as you can;
2. Lift your elbows away from your rib cage to free up your rib expansion;
3. Breathe deeper and/or use the double breath technique (i.e., take your deepest breath and then take another breath on top of that);
4. Hold your trumpet up to your optimal angle (as determined by the angle you naturally use when mouthpiece buzzing);
5. Use your core muscles to squeeze your lower organs to press upward against your lungs to create adequate wind pressure; and
6. Relax your body and focus on resonating sympathetically with the standing wave in your horn.
Doing all of these things helps me avoid muscle fatigue and/or alleviate muscle fatigue when it happens, because my face muscles often become fatigued due to trying to over-compensate for poor wind production. |
Yeah, I'll usually do one or two of the things you mentioned, but will definitely go over the whole checklist next time I tire out. Or, rather, next time I practice
Thanks for the help
Last edited by Mr._Buttersmile on Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr._Buttersmile New Member
Joined: 29 Dec 2021 Posts: 5
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Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Jaw04 wrote: | I usually recommend only practicing when you still feel fresh, so that bad habits don't creep in. But I am sure every great trumpet player has done a lot of playing on worn out chops and there is probably something to be gained from putting that kind of time in.
It's more important that your brain isn't tired. You need to be mentally focused and aware of what is going on when you are playing the trumpet. |
Ehe, I see. That's kind of what I do right now when I tire out but want to keep going anyway: ending a session when even the easiest exercises begin to sound poorly. I think that way I can also prevent bad habits from creeping in
I guess it could be useful when gigging, instinctively knowing what to do differently with tired chops. Also: the more you wear a muscle out while also giving it time to rest, the bigger the hypertrophy gains would be, I'd think. Play big, get big, right?
Mental focus is a big one, I agree. Whenever I'm starting to feel disconnected from what I'm playing, I just put the horn down and pick it up again a couple of hours later. Works wonders
Thanks for replying. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1473 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Playing when chops are tired? In so many words: Don´t!
You have been given a lot of good advice already.My contribution is this: try to become keenly aware of the state of your chops. If vibrations stop don´t push-
- Do a proper warm up - learn which warm up method is the best one for you.
- always play progressively - which means that you should never start out on the high register - go upwards (Bolvin´s take on the Schlossberg intervals is one good example; Jeff Smiley´s BE another.
-intervals done progressively from the low register are very healthy
-easy does it - when practicing be observant of the point in time when your chops begin to feel less vibrant - then take a pause; maybe do some double pedals (although very softly and carefully)
- really number one: never "create" the sound with your lips alone - always do use enough air. This is the number one prerequiste. it´s far too easy to forget this basic ingredient. Apply air whenever you feel more more power is in demand, never never press more.
-take pauses practicing; this has been repeated over and over again on these pages.
-of course you will experience fatigue when playing say on a gig; then try to add more air, or take a small pause (if in a section).
Praciticing like this will ultimately provide a proper foundation
Good Luck! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Mr._Buttersmile wrote: | Jaw04 wrote: | I usually recommend only practicing when you still feel fresh, so that bad habits don't creep in. But I am sure every great trumpet player has done a lot of playing on worn out chops and there is probably something to be gained from putting that kind of time in.
It's more important that your brain isn't tired. You need to be mentally focused and aware of what is going on when you are playing the trumpet. |
Ehe, I see. That's kind of what I do right now when I tire out but want to keep going anyway: ending a session when even the easiest exercises begin to sound poorly. I think that way I can also prevent bad habits from creeping in
I guess it could be useful when gigging, instinctively knowing what to do differently with tired chops. Also: the more you wear a muscle out while also giving it time to rest, the bigger the hypertrophy gains would be, I'd think. Play big, get big, right?
Mental focus is a big one, I agree. Whenever I'm starting to feel disconnected from what I'm playing, I just put the horn down and pick it up again a couple of hours later. Works wonders
Thanks for replying. | You're welcome. Seems like you are on the right path. Keep the awareness and thoughtfulness at every step, and you will eventually overcome physical limitations. |
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SquidHM3 New Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2021 Posts: 1
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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:28 pm Post subject: First post on here, getting back into trumpet playing |
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Good evening everyone! Found this place and decided to make an account. I played trumpet in high school (been out of HS for 36 years now). For someone who hasn't picked up his horn in a very, VERY long time, anyone have any suggestions? I'm considering just starting out as a beginner all over again. I still have my horn from high school. I still can't believe my parents were so generous with what they bought me - and it's time to stop letting that thing gather dust and lay unused (it's a Bach Stradivarius Model 37).
Any advice from those of you who were once in a similar situation? |
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raynjtrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 23 Apr 2021 Posts: 53 Location: Freehold, NJ
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:56 am Post subject: Re: First post on here, getting back into trumpet playing |
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SquidHM3 wrote: | Good evening everyone! Found this place and decided to make an account. I played trumpet in high school (been out of HS for 36 years now). For someone who hasn't picked up his horn in a very, VERY long time, anyone have any suggestions? I'm considering just starting out as a beginner all over again. I still have my horn from high school. I still can't believe my parents were so generous with what they bought me - and it's time to stop letting that thing gather dust and lay unused (it's a Bach Stradivarius Model 37).
Any advice from those of you who were once in a similar situation? |
Welcome back to the trumpet! Yes, a lot of us here are "comeback" players taking up the horn again after various periods of layoff. I started up again 11 months ago. I had only been totally away for about 2 1/2 years, but I had been playing less each year for a number of years, and so I was a long way from my former peak condition. I've been playing nearly every day, and now do about 1-1/2 to 2 hours a day, in several 45-minute sessions. But you'll probably need to start much slower, perhaps only 15 minutes at first. Be sure to rest as much as you play, even during your practice sessions, so that you don't injure your lip (I've bruised my lip multiple times now by over-playing). Be patient with yourself and enjoy the process. Tiny improvements each week are all you need. After you've gotten a little comfortable with playing again, find a teacher who can coach you on specific things to work on each week. And eventually, find an opportunity to play in public, to give yourself the incentive to keep at your practice.
Finally, you should look at the Comeback Players section of this forum, where you'll find lots of more specific advice and stories from others just like you.
Have fun! I hope you enjoy it as much as I have. _________________ Ray Ritchie
Freehold, NJ USA |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:59 am Post subject: |
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These YouTube posts by John Daniel will help a lot! https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJqpVdHpyitre4f7bhNWJT0wyNIrZRXwH
His book, which is excellent, is available here. It’s made a huge difference in every aspect of my playing.
http://johndanieltrumpet.com/ _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2044 Location: USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | For someone who hasn't picked up his horn in a very, VERY long time, anyone have any suggestions? |
The best advice I can offer is for you to take lessons. Start as soon as you can. A good teacher can help you develop a routine -- what to practice and how to do so -- that meets your goals and available practice time. Also, you'll be less likely to develop bad habits that can limit your progress.
If lessons are impossible, or until they are, Harold Mitchell's "Mitchell on Trumpet" is a good place to start. It is a comprehensive method with a series of progressive lessons that go from the absolute beginner level to the very advanced level.
Other good options are Bill Knevitt's sequential "Getting Started Right" and then "The Developing Trumpet Player," or Claude Gordon's "Physical Approach to Elementary Brass Playing" (which could be paired with David Hickman's "100 Progressive Lessons" for a more comprehensive routine).
As good as those books are, they are not tailored to meet your needs, and cannot offer the level of advice a good teacher would regarding how to practice the material to get the most out of it. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3308 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:26 am Post subject: Re: First post on here, getting back into trumpet playing |
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SquidHM3 wrote: | Good evening everyone! Found this place and decided to make an account. ... |
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The previous suggestions and ideas are all good!
Something to be careful about is making sure you establish a good playing (embouchure) technique - many comeback players used poor technique (such as high rim pressure, and stretched lips) when they were younger - and it did work OK to be a decent HS player, but can limit your ability to make further progress.
If that seems like your situation, it would be good to learn more about embouchure in order to avoid problems. A good teacher can help, but make sure to TELL them that you want instruction and advise about embouchure technique.
And this doesn't mean you'll necessarily need to make an 'embouchure change' - only that you might need to learn and use the 'good techniques', and stop using bad ones. There is quite a bit of embouchure 'skill' and 'technique' involved - trying to use rim pressure and 'endure the pain' is NOT the way. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:48 am Post subject: |
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When I know my chops are tired, but still want to put in practice time, I switch to finger practice.
I always have something that I need to drill (etudes, Clarke studies, etc...), so I take the horn from my lips, set the metronome, and bang the valves. It helps me address focus, dexterity, and speed without wearing out my lips. |
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