View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Nonprokingdom Regular Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2021 Posts: 32
|
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: National Brass Ensemble |
|
|
Is there a particular reason this topic was recently deleted? Mr. Sachs offered some valuable insight. Also, some valid points were brought up on possible improvements. Why is this info being censored?
Edited to correct spelling
Last edited by Nonprokingdom on Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
|
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I may not have seen all of it before it got pulled, but it looked like an ugly spectacle to me. Granted people should be free to express their views, but I wish they could do it in ways that are respectfully constructive, rather than picking fights with high-profile posters. (Or anybody else, for that matter.)
Some of the posts were thoughtful, for sure, but I miss the time when we had a number of leading figures in our field regularly posting here. I personally would much rather read what Mike Sachs would like to share about this project than people complaining about it having too many principal players, or vague ensemble problems, and I bet I'm not alone.
I'm not suggesting that famous people here should be immune to criticism, or that everyone always has to fawn over everything they do, but a general expectation of the same kind of civility we would expect face-to-face would make this a much better place for everyone. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Daniel Barenboim Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 247
|
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: Re: National Brass Ensemble |
|
|
Nonprokingdom wrote: | Is there a particular reason this topic was recently deleted? Mr. Sacks offered some valuable insight. Also, some valid points were brought up on possible improvements. Why is this info being censored? |
It's Sachs.
DB |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nonprokingdom Regular Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2021 Posts: 32
|
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: National Brass Ensemble |
|
|
[quote="Daniel Barenboim"][quote="Nonprokingdom"]Is there a particular reason this topic was recently deleted? Mr. Sacks offered some valuable insight. Also, some valid points were brought up on possible improvements. Why is this info being censored?[/quote]
It's Sachs.
DB[/quote]
autocorrección puede ser un dolor a veces. Lo siento señor Barenboim. Humildemente te pido perdon, de un Argentino a otro |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
|
Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I was grateful from that thread to learn about the "Making of Gabrieli" on youtube, which is quite good (watching it right now).
My other takeaway was, geez, trumpet players are competitive. Personally I'm grateful for any ensemble brass production that folk organize. Grateful that there will be another one. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
|
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's still here, in reduced and locked form: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=158517
It turned into a big pissing contest and was cleaned and locked. For decades I have hoped trumpet players would quit living down to our expectations but it is unlikely to ever come to pass. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jabroni Veteran Member
Joined: 25 May 2015 Posts: 146
|
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:51 pm Post subject: Too bad |
|
|
I was not involved in the disagreement that ensued during this forum.
The point I made was regarding diversity and inclusion within a great group such as this. I commented that a group like the Rodney Marsalis brass ensemble is a great example of how diversity can be successful, playing with people who look different, studied with different teachers and having a vast variety of experiences.
Something to really think about and hopefully consider for the future. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mhenrikse Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2009 Posts: 162
|
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Too bad |
|
|
Jabroni wrote: | I was not involved in the disagreement that ensued during this forum.
The point I made was regarding diversity and inclusion within a great group such as this. I commented that a group like the Rodney Marsalis brass ensemble is a great example of how diversity can be successful, playing with people who look different, studied with different teachers and having a vast variety of experiences.
Something to really think about and hopefully consider for the future. |
If you don't like the orchestra audition process, which is a meritocracy, then its not for you. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JRoyal Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 770
|
Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Too bad |
|
|
mhenrikse wrote: | Jabroni wrote: | I was not involved in the disagreement that ensued during this forum.
The point I made was regarding diversity and inclusion within a great group such as this. I commented that a group like the Rodney Marsalis brass ensemble is a great example of how diversity can be successful, playing with people who look different, studied with different teachers and having a vast variety of experiences.
Something to really think about and hopefully consider for the future. |
If you don't like the orchestra audition process, which is a meritocracy, then its not for you. |
No doubt hard work was put in , and for those that achieve such positions as principal, they are no doubt tremendously talented, but to shoot down a comment that points out the lack of diversity with a condescending cry about ‘merit’ is profoundly lacking in awareness of the systemic inequality that precedes the situation. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
|
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Too bad |
|
|
mhenrikse wrote: | Jabroni wrote: | I was not involved in the disagreement that ensued during this forum.
The point I made was regarding diversity and inclusion within a great group such as this. I commented that a group like the Rodney Marsalis brass ensemble is a great example of how diversity can be successful, playing with people who look different, studied with different teachers and having a vast variety of experiences.
Something to really think about and hopefully consider for the future. |
If you don't like the orchestra audition process, which is a meritocracy, then its not for you. |
Not knowing how this group was formed, I don't mean to take one side or another (given that we don't know who was asked, but wasn't able to participate), but I would speculate that Jabroni's comment might mean to highlight the fact that all the trumpets selected for this group are male, and overwhelmingly from European backgrounds. Obviously this does still represent the majority of orchestral brass players, but, for instance, there are prominent Black trumpet players in top orchestras, and prominent female trumpet players as well, but none of them are present in this group.
Last edited by Steve A on Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9038 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
I hesitate to put my toe back into this, but I think we're missing the point.
The reaction to some of the first posts was not, necessarily, against their proposing a more ecumenical position selection in orchestras, or how people were selected for this project. Instead of a positive reaction, we get negativity right from the get-go.
It was that, as soon as this complex, massive project was announced, instead of showing excitement for it and how impressive putting together such a massive project and the subsequent awesome musical, experience we look forward to is, some posters' first salvo out of the gate was to criticize the project and make negative social comments about it.
It's not that Forum members might disagree with the detractors' comments or that they're not fair game for discussion. It's the posters' timing. Let's show our admiration and interest in this project, first and leave the social engineering for later. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Gottfried Reiche Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 184
|
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
It's a hot button issue, and that poster was 100% in the right for calling it out. If anyone was uncomfortable by it, then that is part of the issue. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9038 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gottfried Reiche wrote: | It's a hot button issue, and that poster was 100% in the right for calling it out. If anyone was uncomfortable by it, then that is part of the issue. |
No doubt, but isn't that a good topic for another thread, rather than trashing one who's purpose was to announce this project?
And no, questioning the timing of this negativity at a moment when we should be positive, does not imply that one is part of the problem rather than being part of the solution. One doesn't imply the other. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nonprokingdom Regular Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2021 Posts: 32
|
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Don Herman rev2"]It's still here, in reduced and locked form: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=158517
It turned into a big pissing contest and was cleaned and locked. For decades I have hoped trumpet players would quit living down to our expectations but it is unlikely to ever come to pass.[/quote]
You’re right, it was so “reduced” I thought it was a different thread!
Why are posts being censored that don’t break TH policy or guidelines? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
|
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Gottfried Reiche wrote: | It's a hot button issue, and that poster was 100% in the right for calling it out. If anyone was uncomfortable by it, then that is part of the issue. |
Kafka trap _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mhenrikse Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2009 Posts: 162
|
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tpt_Guy wrote: | Gottfried Reiche wrote: | It's a hot button issue, and that poster was 100% in the right for calling it out. If anyone was uncomfortable by it, then that is part of the issue. |
Kafka trap |
spot on! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nonprokingdom Regular Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2021 Posts: 32
|
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Incorrect.
Being uncomfortable talking about a particular issue doesn’t mean that person is being accused of anything. The issue needs to be talked about openly and, hopefully, objectively.
Interesting to note that the term Kafka trap is often used to deflect warranted claims of lack of diversity. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
|
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't necessarily disagree about the importance of open discussion, but there's a time and a place.
If someone sends you a wedding invitation, it's not an occasion to discuss their liabilities individually or as a couple; it's a time to celebrate. This was an announcement like that. If you want to discuss selection, auditioning, professional demographics, etc., those probably don't belong in this thread. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9038 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | I don't necessarily disagree about the importance of open discussion, but there's a time and a place.
If someone sends you a wedding invitation, it's not an occasion to discuss their liabilities individually or as a couple; it's a time to celebrate. This was an announcement like that. If you want to discuss selection, auditioning, professional demographics, etc., those probably don't belong in this thread. |
Excellent analogy.
nonpro . . if you had started a separate thread on this subject, you might have gotten a large response. But by just jumping into a thread who's intent was to be a positive one with, what some would describe as snarky, comments, you get . . (crickets).
Learn from it. There's a way to get what you want. This isn't it. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Nonprokingdom Regular Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2021 Posts: 32
|
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Very fair. Mr. Sachs original post/invitation was not the best place to air grievances.
But, I did start a new thread, as suggested. I thought the other thread was deleted, I was mistaken. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|