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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Isometric tension ... |
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I'm curious whether most players use some amount of 'isometric tension' in their embouchure formation - my feeling is that I do.
For purposes of discussion, by 'isometric tension' I mean the more general
use of other muscles to counteract or manipulate / adjust the forces for embouchure control. Not necessarily specific 'opposite action' muscles such as bicep and triceps.
for example: in conjunction with using forceful tongue arch, I also have the feeling of some isometric pull from my jaw and and 'lower lip muscles' that counteract the 'tongue muscles'.
Similarly, when inwardly constricting or compressing my lips, I also have the feeling of an isometric outward muscle pull.
Do you use some amount of isometric tension, or do you consciously AVOID all feeling of embouchure 'isometric tension', and do you believe that avoidance (or use) is a key part of embouchure control?
I think this important because it can strongly affect what people think and do for embouchure control.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Wilktone
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002
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Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: |
Isometric tension is never a good thing. |
Sometimes we get bogged down on semantics, but I prefer to approach things first from an objective perspective and then use that knowledge to come up with visualizations and analogies that lead the player towards the correct technique.
First, let's acknowledge that analogies and visualizations are useful. We can argue that practicing with the feeling of no "isometric tension" can be useful, however there is a degree of isometric muscular activity in the embouchure while playing. There has to be or else the lips won't be held in place to produce the pitch we want.
| abontrumpet wrote: | | I'll always chime in to disagree when this is posted (sorry Dave, not personal). It's gotten to the point where I can tell that a trumpeter plays in the red (top lip) without looking at them after hearing them play for about 5 minutes. |
I actually conducted a pilot study to look at that very claim. Did you ever participate in that? I see that the plugins I used are broken now, so you can't try it out. I'll see about fixing them later.
https://wilktone.com/?p=3746
The results of that survey, as well as the literature review, can be read here:
https://www.wilktone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/AN-EXAMINATION-OF-THE-ANATOMICAL-AND-TECHNICAL-ARGUMENTS-AGAINST-PLACING-THE-MOUTHPIECE-ON-VERMILLION.pdf
The summary of those findings are that participants' results at guessing whether the player places the mouthpiece on the red of the lips is consistent with random chance. Two survey participants did score 83%, so perhaps those individuals were more expert than the rest of the 96 other participants, but I suspect that those are just statistical outliers.
| Quote: | | While there may not be a mechanical and physiological reason that you can't play in the red, it's very rare that it works for your average trumpeter. |
I usually have to clarify when this topic is brought up that I'm not recommending that everyone adopt a mouthpiece placement with the upper or lower rim on the vermillion, just that it's not a hard and fast rule. It's definitely true that most players don't want a placement that high or low on the lips, but some do. These players happen to have anatomical features that make this the best placement for them. Yes, they are on the far end of the bell curve, but they are not just "exceptions."
| Quote: | | For the OP: if you don't think about it too much, your placement will generally settle where it's efficient. |
Yes, that's probably true, but not always. When players are given rules to follow (e.g, "keep it out of the red") if they happen to be one of those less common players who need to place on the red they will avoid it. This happened to me as a music student and I ended up needing a consultation with an "embouchure specialist" to get my own placement problems worked out in grad school.
If they happen to place better "out of the red" (and we ALL place on the red with at least part of the mouthpiece rim) then they will gravitate towards that placement. AND they will understand that it's not a hard and fast rule so when they become teachers and encounter students with that they won't inadvertently change the student's mouthpiece placement when it's fine.
Dave
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Does the placement of the mouthpiece have to be so technical and micro-analyzed? Can't your intuition and sensitivity find the right position to produce the most effective buzz? After all, it's not what you think it should be, but what it actually is?
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Billy B
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Does the placement of the mouthpiece have to be so technical and micro-analyzed? Can't your intuition and sensitivity find the right position to produce the most effective buzz? After all, it's not what you think it should be, but what it actually is? |
Your last sentence could easily be verbatim from Bill Adam. He even had a joke that illustrated this point. He had a “story” that went along with every point he made.
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Jay wrote: | Quote: | | I'm curious whether most players use some amount of 'isometric tension' in their embouchure formation - my feeling is that I do. |
Yes. They ALL do.
| Quote: | | For purposes of discussion, by 'isometric tension' I mean the more general use of other muscles to counteract or manipulate / adjust the forces for embouchure control. Not necessarily specific 'opposite action' muscles such as bicep and triceps. |
But it IS opposite action muscles. The "roll-in" and "roll-out" muscles tense against each other. Ever so gently for low notes. More so for higher notes.
| Quote: | | for example: in conjunction with using forceful tongue arch, I also have the feeling of some isometric pull from my jaw and and 'lower lip muscles' that counteract the 'tongue muscles' |
"Tongue muscles" are not part of the pulsing embouchure, and therfore have NO direct effect on pitch. They, and the resulting forward movement of the tongue, are related to the "roll-out" action of the bottom lip along with embouchure corners engagement. If you tongue arch is pronounced, as for higher pitches, that indicates that you bottom lip "roll-out" action is more engaged. |
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Steve A
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Does the placement of the mouthpiece have to be so technical and micro-analyzed? |
No, probably it doesn't have to be, most of the time, for most people.
| kehaulani wrote: | | Can't your intuition and sensitivity find the right position to produce the most effective buzz? After all, it's not what you think it should be, but what it actually is? |
Again, obviously this works just fine a lot of the time. No one is arguing with that, and if you're happy with your results, there's no reason to change. However, some other people say they tried the usual suggestions for starting out, and didn't get good results, and are asking if there are other ideas about how to approach it.
People who are saying this is making things too complicated are, in effect, saying "the conventional wisdom is right, so you must be wrong", and, being fair, at least some of the time that's probably really good advice. However, there still remains some portion of the time where people make an honest effort to do what many people find success with, and it doesn't work for them, and, for some reason I'm at a total loss to understand, the brass teaching world is positively allergic to any suggestion that any percentage of individuals might need different instructions to find success.
Last edited by Steve A on Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wilktone
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: |
I actually conducted a pilot study to look at that very claim. Did you ever participate in that? I see that the plugins I used are broken now, so you can't try it out. I'll see about fixing them later.
https://wilktone.com/?p=3746 |
I was able to fix the audio plugins, but the survey plugin is no longer working for Wordpress. I also recreated the answer page and added some additional thoughts.
So if you feel that you can tell by sound alone where a trumpet player places the mouthpiece you can try it out. With only 6 examples to listen to it's within the realm of possibility that you might get all 6 right (1 survey participant did), but overall the results were consistent with random chance.
| kehaulani wrote: | | Does the placement of the mouthpiece have to be so technical and micro-analyzed? Can't your intuition and sensitivity find the right position to produce the most effective buzz? After all, it's not what you think it should be, but what it actually is? |
It doesn't have to be, but there's no reason why we can't analyze mouthpiece placement empirically and then make pedagogically useful conclusions. Again, it's debatable what we tell our students when instructing this, but if you're a teacher (or going to offer advice online) I feel it's better to understand what it actually is.
And it doesn't always work to let intuition drive where the mouthpiece placement goes. Even fine players sometimes can make good changes by adjusting their placement. Some very unusual looking placements work best where they are.
| kalijah wrote: | | But it IS opposite action muscles. The "roll-in" and "roll-out" muscles tense against each other. Ever so gently for low notes. More so for higher notes. |
Yes! But I would quibble a bit with the descriptions as "rolling" in and out. There's a definite up/down lip compression that happens with two of the basic embouchure types and the third basic type tends to derive lip compression more from a forward/backward "pinching" of the lips against each other. There's also the isometric action of holding the mouth corners in place which happens outside of the mouthpiece.
| kalijah wrote: | | "Tongue muscles" are not part of the pulsing embouchure, and therfore have NO direct effect on pitch. They, and the resulting forward movement of the tongue, are related to the "roll-out" action of the bottom lip along with embouchure corners engagement. If you tongue arch is pronounced, as for higher pitches, that indicates that you bottom lip "roll-out" action is more engaged. |
It's a little more complicated than that. I've seen acoustical research papers that used artificial embouchures and oral cavities to isolate and check the roll of the tongue on pitch and it was determined that the level of tongue arch can not only affect intonation but also result in a change of partials.
As far as the tongue arch altering the bottom lip, those muscle groups aren't directly connected. A speech therapist I asked about this (who would presumably know about the anatomy) stated that the action of the tongue shouldn't have a direct effect on a person's lips like this. That said, she's my wife so she might be biased to tell me what she expects I want to hear.
But if we look at the upstream embouchure type and compare what the lower lip is doing to the two downstream embouchure types I don't think that the tongue arch can really be doing what you suggest. The lower lip functions differently between the embouchure types. Maybe that would explain some of the variations in how different brass musicians describe what their tongue is doing, but I suspect that it's more due to the size and shape of the player's oral cavity combined with the inaccuracies of describing what a player *thinks* he or she is doing.
Dave
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JWG
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Joined: 27 Jul 2011
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Wow, interesting question . . . I can only answer that I set the mouthpiece to my chops "innately." LOL. When I need to play, I already have the horn up to my lips, then I take a breath, then my lips automatically set for vibrating sympathetically to the standing wave that I want to produce.
However, someone once showed me a trick for choosing the angle at which I should set the mouthpiece upon my chops: When attached to the trumpet you should set your mouthpiece to your face at the same angle which you use to buzz on the mouthpiece alone.
My $0.02.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:04 am Post subject: |
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I am not against thinking through a problem. We definitely benefit from self-reflection. I just wonder if there's a lot of not seeing the forest for the trees.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Billy B
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | I am not against thinking through a problem. We definitely benefit from self-reflection. I just wonder if there's a lot of not seeing the forest for the trees. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | ... the brass teaching world is positively allergic to any suggestion that any percentage of individuals might need different instructions to find success. |
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Should people in the 'brass teaching world' be able to provide a similar level of 'what to do' and 'how to do it' as a baseball pitching coach does regarding throwing fast, curves, sliders, knuckle, etc.?
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As far as the tongue arch altering the bottom lip, those muscle groups aren't directly connected. |
They absolutely are.
It is not a "speech" correlation. It is related to the mouth's most basic function of eating, specifically the debris-expeller action. It is difficult to increasingly tension the corners and roll-out the bottom lip without the tongue reaction of thrusting forward. Try it.
| Quote: | | I've seen acoustical research papers that used artificial embouchures and oral cavities to isolate and check the roll of the tongue on pitch and it was determined that the level of tongue arch can not only affect intonation but also result in a change of partials. |
Perhaps more of an effect for lower impedance instruments and embouchures, such as trombone. May not apply for higher impedance instruments and embouchures. Acoustical effects do not preclude pitch control by embouchure. Especially since we already raise the tongue for the highest pitches due to the above affect. |
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Steve A
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | | Steve A wrote: | | ... the brass teaching world is positively allergic to any suggestion that any percentage of individuals might need different instructions to find success. |
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Should people in the 'brass teaching world' be able to provide a similar level of 'what to do' and 'how to do it' as a baseball pitching coach does regarding throwing fast, curves, sliders, knuckle, etc.? |
I don't really have an opinion on that, to be honest. I mean, it sounds reasonable on the surface to expect that, but I think there are a lot of differences between brass playing and baseball that make this not really an apples-to-apples comparison. For starters, the fact that you can't the see the important things happening in brass playing, and we're using our embouchures to do something extremely different to everything else we do with those body parts in playing make these two quite dissimilar. Throwing a baseball, however skillfully, is much less foreign to most newcomers experiences, compared to playing a brass instrument.
For what it's worth, I'm not trying to say every teacher should be an embouchure specialist, or every student needs extensive physical setup instructions before they start. The methods Billy B and others are suggesting work really well for lots of people, and almost certainly have at least some value for virtually everyone, so they absolutely belong. My issue is solely with the widespread refusal to accept that any other more physically oriented approach could ever be valid or important for any students, at any time. Take a look around here - it's pretty much impossible to find any discussion of anything specifically dealing with any aspect of physical setup without a constant barrage of people saying "there's only one way, and it's the way my teacher taught me, because my teacher was the best" derailing any attempt to constructively discuss the subject. It's like people who don't use these approaches to teaching or thinking about their playing are so inflexibly, adamantly opposed to them that they won't even let other people discuss them in peace. |
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Wilktone
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Joined: 25 Aug 2002
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Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | | I am not against thinking through a problem. We definitely benefit from self-reflection. I just wonder if there's a lot of not seeing the forest for the trees. |
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Can be, but if you want to understand the forest "ecosystem" as a whole you should understand the tree's role in it.
| JayKosta wrote: | | Steve A wrote: | | ... the brass teaching world is positively allergic to any suggestion that any percentage of individuals might need different instructions to find success. |
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Should people in the 'brass teaching world' be able to provide a similar level of 'what to do' and 'how to do it' as a baseball pitching coach does regarding throwing fast, curves, sliders, knuckle, etc.? |
Again, we can debate how much an individual student needs to know the "what" of how to play. I don't think it's fair to our students (and the people we offer advice to online) if we don't strive to understand the "what" of how to play. At the very least, it provides us with a context to know whether or not a particular piece of advice is going to lead to long-term success or if the musician is practicing habits that will hinder progress.
| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | As far as the tongue arch altering the bottom lip, those muscle groups aren't directly connected. |
They absolutely are.
It is not a "speech" correlation. It is related to the mouth's most basic function of eating, specifically the debris-expeller action. It is difficult to increasingly tension the corners and roll-out the bottom lip without the tongue reaction of thrusting forward. Try it. |
I have. Both today and a while ago when this topic came up before. It just doesn't work as you describe for me. Maybe it's something that's just different for different players. Maybe it's a conditioned response that when your tongue does X your lips want to do Y. I dunno, but it's not universal.
Since the anatomical descriptions of the muscles of the tongue and face don't show a direct connection to each other, what plausible rational do you think causes this phenomenon for some players? Why isn't it universal?
| kalijah wrote: | | Perhaps more of an effect for lower impedance instruments and embouchures, such as trombone. May not apply for higher impedance instruments and embouchures. Acoustical effects do not preclude pitch control by embouchure. Especially since we already raise the tongue for the highest pitches due to the above affect. |
Perhaps, but as far as I can tell the same basic principals apply to all brass instruments, just a difference of scale. Can you cite any source that I can look for to help me understand your point?
Dave
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TrpPro
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I set my lips as I put the mouthpiece on. A good, fat low B is my starting point.
Why the low B and not a low C (or something else low)? Just me I guess. This is the note that I like and goes along with the idea of the low embouchure helping to play the high register.
I practice Caruso exercises to train the embouchure to make the transition from low playing to high playing. Important thing is to learn how to just blow the horn and not be fussy about lip movements, corners, etc.
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sbs511
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Hi all,
That youtube video I did was just meant to be something from the symphony right at the beginning of the pandemic to help out music teachers trying to teach virtually. We tried to give a bunch of ideas and concepts without getting too complicated. Yes, I learned the hand embouchure set up from Gail Williams during my degree at Northwestern and figured it would be an easy way to get students set up something close to normal when they are learning virtually.
I remember doing a little bit of buzzing my first lesson so I figure it can't be a horrible thing.
It's always hard to put into words how to have students set up so I've enjoyed stumbling on this and reading about various ideas.
Steve Woomert |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| What I'm finding that is starting to work for me is to go beyond saying "M", & even beyond saying "P" (which puckers the lips ever so slightly more than just saying "M"). What I've been doing beyond all that is unfurling my lips like Lynn does. I can tell when I have it right when I sneer a bit and form a dimple on my right side. When I say this, I don't mean contorting my lips/face like a stone hard statue. Rather, just enough firmness to form and set that type of embouchure. (Wet as well). Then I set the mouthpiece on that 50/50. Here's where the experiment came in. With that set up, I tried to just have my air/wind open the aperture. However, doing that, I found that I fracked notes, especially that pesky 4th line "D". (Pesky to me that is). So, rather than just having just my air open my aperture, I took a page out of Charlie Porter's book & stuck my tongue through my lips with the mouthpiece in place to open the aperture just a bit. What I found with that, was that the fracking was just about gone, & that my tone opened up rich & full. To each his own I guess; but what have you guys found that works for you? Would love some comments on this. THANKS!! |
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