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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1049 Location: Europe
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Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:32 pm Post subject: Perks of playing without teacher |
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The standard advice on TH is usually a variant on 'get a teacher', but is it really so essential that going without one is impossible? Obviously, I don't think so (given that I've started a thread about it) but I'm curious to learn your opinions on the matter.
Some of the perks of not having a teacher telling you what to do is that it teaches self-awareness, critical thinking and encourages experimentation. Of course, a major drawback is that it may lead you to waste time or even sabotage your efforts to improve. Yet, your teacher may not be up to the task to actually improve your playing (and without trying other things, how would you know?). Would it be a useful experience for trumpeters in general to deliberately spend at least some period in their life (say, a year) without any guidance at all? Or is trumpet playing an activity that really cannot be done without proper guidance?
Caveat: I'm not talking absolute beginners, but rather advanced players that have a good grasp (but not neccesarily) mastered the basics of playing. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2100 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:08 am Post subject: |
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The importance of a teacher for someone beyond the "true beginner" level is tied to that players goals: The bigger their goals the more likely it is that they will need help to achieve them.
Thus, you find very few "top" players -- professionals or amateurs -- who call themselves self-taught. They've either needed help to get there, or the help they received got them there faster. On the other hand, if you survey the ranks of local community bands and orchestras you'll find plenty of third and second trumpet players who are self taught.
Just taking lessons isn't enough. The greatest benefit comes from intelligent and diligent practice and application of what a player has learned from his/her teacher. That is the accelerant for progress. |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1049 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Dayton wrote: | Thus, you find very few "top" players -- professionals or amateurs -- who call themselves self-taught. They've either needed help to get there, or the help they received got them there faster. On the other hand, if you survey the ranks of local community bands and orchestras you'll find plenty of third and second trumpet players who are self taught. |
True, but that's taking it to the extremes. The question is not about doing everything without a teacher, but working on things on your own for a limited time (on purpose, not because you're simply 'inbetween teachers'). _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Perks of playing without teacher |
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stuartissimo wrote: | ... Some of the perks of not having a teacher telling you what to do is that it teaches self-awareness, critical thinking and encourages experimentation. Of course, a major drawback is that it may lead you to waste time or even sabotage your efforts to improve. ... |
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I doubt that it 'teaches' self-awareness or critical thinking - more that it relies on having those abilities for success.
Another major item of self-teaching is to somehow know/learn 'what is to be accomplished'. That knowledge doesn't usually just occur on its own - there needs to be guides, examples, explanations, etc. - and it seems that kernels of concise 'good information' can be hard to find, and is often obscured by a lot of chatter and chaff.
You 'can be' your own best teacher, but you need to know what you're doing, and where you want to get. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Rapier232 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 1324 Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:16 am Post subject: |
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I am completely self taught. I bought a trumpet and Tune a Day book 1. It was a few months before I bought a tuner and found that what I thought was an A in the staff was lowest line E. at the same time as teaching myself how to read music. I practiced BUT I didn’t know what or how to practice. I bought an Arban and tried to play from that and gradually improved. I didn’t understand the importance of actually learning scales and their names.
Gradually got good enough to join a brass band, and found I had no real idea of what I was doing. Breaking bars down to play the correct note lengths to time was something I didn’t know that I didn’t know. I got by, by listening to how others played the parts and copying them.
Now some 40 years later, still without lessons, I’m good enough to be paid to play in theatre pit bands and solo cornet in a brass band. Still not great at dividing time signatures and I definitely couldn’t play in a pit band without several rehearsals before the shows. Even better if I can get hold of the music a couple of months ahead.
So my advice to anyone. Get a teacher early on. When/if you get comfortable, carry on alone, but still get lessons now and then, on things you are a bit weak on.
My biggest regret is nobody told me that when I started out.
(Sorry for the ramble and if it’s off topic) _________________ "Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1411 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:16 am Post subject: |
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Seems like many top-level people in sports have teachers/coaches. Just look at PGA pros on the range. MLB teams have hitting coaches, etc.
I'm just a lousy self-taught amateur, but if I were trying to achieve or maintain world-class status, I'd want expert ears to listen one-on-one and help me adjust from time to time. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I created a post about this very topic a couple of weeks back, and the general gist of that post is coming away from the idea that I'm a self-taught player.
I used to refer to myself that way - growing up in a small town I had the general music instruction of my K-6 choral teacher, and the general instrumental music instruction of the various band directions I had from grades 5-12, but I had almost no actual private lessons. I tried one summer with a college music major, but abandoned it after a couple weeks because it just wasn't a good fit and I didn't like his approach.
(Later in HS I did a bunch of church organ/trumpet work with the aforementioned K-6 teacher who ended up being a lifelong mentor of mine. He's not a trumpet player, but he's an accomplished musician in his own right.)
Then in the military I had 6 months of weekly private instructions when my teacher decided to actual be there, but again, it wasn't a good mix between student and teacher, although he did teach me some general things about phrasing and musicality.
Once I graduated from the Army/Navy School of Music, I went to my first assignment and it was expected that I hold up my end of things as a player.
Here's the thing though - a "lesson" can come in a lot of different formats. It doesn't have to be a one-on-one private lesson, and looking back, I had a lot of teachers over the years. Just standing around talking shop, or working through a passage in a quintet tune with a group of fine players, if you keep your eye, ears and mind open, "lessons" come to you all the time.
So am I truly self-taught? Not even close. I didn't have much in the way of private instruction, but I've been fortunate enough to get to play alongside of some truly stellar musicians, so as long as you maintain the intent to get better and pay attention, you can learn a lot just by being an active player and getting to play with people who are better than you. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5213 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I basically see my job as a teacher as helping my students learn how to solve their own problems. Even if you have a lesson every week, you are still (hopefully!) spending the vast majority of your trumpet time away from a teacher. That's plenty of time to practice self-awareness and critical thinking. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5706 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | I basically see my job as a teacher as helping my students learn how to solve their own problems. Even if you have a lesson every week, you are still (hopefully!) spending the vast majority of your trumpet time away from a teacher. That's plenty of time to practice self-awareness and critical thinking. |
A teacher can't practice for a student - the student has to put in the work.
In hindsight I'd come to the conclusion that some of the gaps in my abilities are as a result of not having a teacher. It took me a long time to come around to the idea that I couldn't avoid the things that were hard and only do the things that were fun. I've been fortunate that I've always been able to get around the deficiencies I have in my technique, that my chops have been naturally strong enough, and that I naturally have a good sound.
My 3rd finger is awful - technical passages where I have to use my 3rd finger have always been problematic because I never took the time to address that head-on, and I'm at an age now where I really can't go back and hammer it - the onset of congenital osteoarthritis has limited just how hard I can push my hands at any given time. Even today my hands are paying for the additional practice I've been putting in towards my upcoming Easter gig.
In any case, I think if I'd had gone the normal collegiate route rather than going the direction I did, my instructor probably would have addressed that 3rd finger and I'd have been neck deep in the right exercises to strengthen it and clean it up. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Learning and progressing are basically covered by 3 things -
SHOULD - knowing what to do
SHALL - being dedicated and committed to achieving the 'shoulds'
SHOW - demonstrate ability, and ongoing maintenance and improvement _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:56 am Post subject: |
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I’ve been playing since 1954. I’ve had 18 teachers and have learned something from every one of them.
I’m not playing in the CSO or SF Jazz Collective yet but I’m getting better and having fun. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Call it what you will, another party to see and hear what you are doing is valuable. They can see/hear some things you may not be aware of. Even little things like thinking you're completely depressing a valve when you're not.
Nobody's too good to learn more and from another party. Lest we forget, this is not only pertaining to technique but to musical expression.
Regarding self-evaluation, you should be doing that, anyway. Another party helps you gain further insight.
I was talking to a few players in my band one day about my going to a summer workshop. They were wide-eyed when they found out I attended as a student, not an instructor. I don't know who was more surprised, them or me at their response. You never stop learning. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1493 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:35 am Post subject: |
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I´ve been playing since 1957. Was handed a horn told to "kind of spit into the mouthpiece, without really doing it". Drudging the C scale during a year and that was it. It turned out that I had (have) a very good ear - my only asset).
But I wanted to play well so I began practicing and in 1964 (?) I found myself in the front row. (Still am).
Always practicing a lot, listened to the great guys, admired Maurice, Bunny, Louis, later on Doc. Bought the books I could find; Arban, and probably the rest. And got quite good; lead chair from 1968 and on.
But ´round 2010 my chops went to the dogs. Overuse. All these years I had failed to understand the importance of breathing the right way.
You just cannot mend the mistakes you don´t know the existence of.
Then this pro came along, 18 lessons in all before he sadly passed on.
His main and single message was: more air, free air, air in the exact proportions etc etc.
What if I had taken lessons already beginning 1960, when I began to be able to afford it???
So anyone wanting to make the road less bumpy - go for a teacher. Otherwise you might end up so entangled into your fully grown idiosyncracies that no teacher might be able to help you. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1049 Location: Europe
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Thanks all for sharing your thoughts. It’s not really an answer to the question I was trying to ask though. I do not question the usefulness of teachers in general. In fact, I’ve recently opted to teach a beginner myself, for no other reason that if I hadn’t, he would have started out without a teacher. Even though I don’t find I qualify as a proper teacher, I hope to help him avoid at least some of the common DIY pitfalls (though I still occasionally encourage him to find a proper trumpet teacher once he’s able to do so).
Personally, I have taken a (temporary) break from having a teacher myself and found it mostly beneficial. It forced me to critically evaluate my abilities and research different approaches to overcome obstacles, and find out how and why things worked (or didn’t). While I learned a lot from my former teachers, I learned nearly as much going at it myself. Before I never thought much beyond what my teachers said and just followed their instructions without properly understanding them.When I do get a teacher again in the future, I think the time I spent alone will help me understand and execute their instructions a lot better than before. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Stuart, you make a good point, by implication. Taking lessons one can, without even noticing, deferring too much to their teacher, anticipating that the teacher will do all the thinking for them. When you do that, there is no introspection on your part. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:09 am Post subject: |
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How to Know You Need a Trumpet Teacher
- The band finishes and you still have a lot of notes left.
- A guy comes to the door and asks if you are giving saxophone lessons.
- Your neighbor’s dog howls as soon as he sees you with your case.
- People stop asking you to play at birthday parties.
- You get funny looks when you say ‘it says FINE but I didn’t think it was very good at all.”
- When you come back from break and the rest of the band is gone.
- When the director asks who's playing the C trumpet and no one raises their hand.
- When your audition ends before you finish playing.
- When your accompanist keeps rolling her eyes.
- You think transposition has something to do with DNA and genomes. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Thinking on the original post. Yeah I experimented a ton without a teacher, found range through it, etc. it’s possible that under tutelage I would have never gotten an extra octave. It came with its trade offs that eventually lead to me stop playing. Double embrochure, tone, intonation, etc…
When I came back I almost gave up after a week, but swallowed my pride and sought professional help. I’m in the camp that a good teacher will tell you to experiment and that there is no “one fits all” solution for anything your trying to improve or overcome. I was lucky and found a teacher that is helping me work stuff out I could not ever get past, but at the same time encouraging me to experiment enough to find my own path of putting it all together.
I think that is a tough road from the teaching side and frustrating for students as well. The student takes the lessons with some kind of end goal in the beginning, but wants quick answers that don’t always exist. If the teacher is not flexible enough, the student practices a ton and may hit a wall due to lack of experimentation. At the same time the teacher may have a student he has tried every approach they can think of, to help the student try different things and the student in not in the mindset of experimentation that the teacher is trying to covey through concepts and exercises to help the student find their path.
The other problems are if you just played well for so long that you may not be seeking lessons or maybe your only dishing them out. One would think if everyone learned from everyone, they may get a chance to learn something new and they may pick up a golden nugget of information, if not for themselves, maybe for the next person they talk shop with to or teach whom may benefit from it. Even the best pros learn from each other.
For instance, if I told you that every high note method is correct, would you believe me? They are all correct from their particular point of view. Think about it. Why would a method work for some and not others? Concepts are part of the experimental equations that one must find the balance to in order to solve it on their own. One of those methods may help you find your lightbulb moment.
In the end, yes, absolutely, you need to hit the woodshed and experiment on your own, but in a ideal world, input and guidance should lead you down that path quicker.
-marc |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2201 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:33 am Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | How to Know You Need a Trumpet Teacher
- The band finishes and you still have a lot of notes left.
- A guy comes to the door and asks if you are giving saxophone lessons.
- Your neighbor’s dog howls as soon as he sees you with your case.
- People stop asking you to play at birthday parties.
- You get funny looks when you say ‘it says FINE but I didn’t think it was very good at all.”
- When you come back from break and the rest of the band is gone.
- When the director asks who's playing the C trumpet and no one raises their hand.
- When your audition ends before you finish playing.
- When your accompanist keeps rolling her eyes.
- You think transposition has something to do with DNA and genomes. |
That's funny, Jim!
If you count my older brother, I've had fifteen trumpet teachers in my lifetime. I learned something from each of them; only once in awhile, however, did I have those "aha!" moments from a lesson that opened things up for me. I've actually gained a lot over the years from posts on TPIN and TH (is TPIN still around? I left when the trolls took over). The teacher that brought about the most "aha!" moments was the one I had the fewest lessons with--I went to him when I was in undergrad and things weren't getting fixed by my regular teacher. He was the department chairman and former head trumpet teacher but was only giving lessons quietly on the side so as not to steal the head teacher's thunder. He showed me things to do that would address my issues, something my regular teacher, who was a good teacher and amazing player but had never had any of those issues, could not understand. I also had one lesson at a summer jazz camp with Dominic Spera and one lesson with Don Jacoby before he passed. Both of those were "aha!" moments and helped correct some air and chop issues I was having. I also got a lesson with the lead player on my cruise ship gig--he was a Claude Gordon student and showed me how I'd been doing the Systematic Approach method all wrong and gave me a short routine that helped me survive two shows and a dance set every night.
So, short answer, learn from everybody who can teach you something, whether they be formal teachers, bandmates, or experienced pros here on TH. "Self-taught" is only the domain of a gifted few; everyone else can benefit from someone who can point them in the right direction. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10209 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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So true! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1049 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Notlem wrote: | Thinking on the original post. Yeah I experimented a ton without a teacher, found range through it, etc. it’s possible that under tutelage I would have never gotten an extra octave. It came with its trade offs that eventually lead to me stop playing. Double embrochure, tone, intonation, etc…
When I came back I almost gave up after a week, but swallowed my pride and sought professional help. I’m in the camp that a good teacher will tell you to experiment and that there is no “one fits all” solution for anything your trying to improve or overcome. I was lucky and found a teacher that is helping me work stuff out I could not ever get past, but at the same time encouraging me to experiment enough to find my own path of putting it all together.
I think that is a tough road from the teaching side and frustrating for students as well. The student takes the lessons with some kind of end goal in the beginning, but wants quick answers that don’t always exist. If the teacher is not flexible enough, the student practices a ton and may hit a wall due to lack of experimentation. At the same time the teacher may have a student he has tried every approach they can think of, to help the student try different things and the student in not in the mindset of experimentation that the teacher is trying to covey through concepts and exercises to help the student find their path.
The other problems are if you just played well for so long that you may not be seeking lessons or maybe your only dishing them out. One would think if everyone learned from everyone, they may get a chance to learn something new and they may pick up a golden nugget of information, if not for themselves, maybe for the next person they talk shop with to or teach whom may benefit from it. Even the best pros learn from each other.
For instance, if I told you that every high note method is correct, would you believe me? They are all correct from their particular point of view. Think about it. Why would a method work for some and not others? Concepts are part of the experimental equations that one must find the balance to in order to solve it on their own. One of those methods may help you find your lightbulb moment.
In the end, yes, absolutely, you need to hit the woodshed and experiment on your own, but in a ideal world, input and guidance should lead you down that path quicker. |
Interesting read. You (and some others) correctly point out that experimentation and self-awareness aren’t stricly mutually exclusive to playing with a teacher. And honestly, it’s not like my own practice time without a teacher was without lessons, just not in the traditional teacher-student way. I’ve read a lot and watched a lot of video’s (like Trent Austin’s mini lessons for example). I hadn’t really looked at it that way yet. There are some specific things I wish to improve. Maybe I’ll opt for master classes for specific aspects of playing from various teachers, instead of going for the broader scoped, long term lesson plans by a single one. Gonna chew a bit on this, thanks for the replies everyone. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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