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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:10 pm Post subject: Help Playing Louder |
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I've never been the strongest player and now I find myself in a wind ensemble where I struggle to be heard over the group. This makes for way too much blasting on my part and the predictable hit on my endurance.
My current setup is a Bach 1.5C with a slightly smaller rim married to a ML Bach 43/43. I've experimented with using a Schilke Symphony M3 and a Bach 6 and while both allow me to player louder neither produce a sound that projects as much as I'd like and both are taxing to play.
In all generality does this point to the need for a bigger drill or bigger backbore? My limited success with the Bach 6 makes me want to try a shallower V cup and I was thinking about trying an ACB TA1. Is that any better a choice? Anything else likely to help? I've considered looking for more of a lead piece, not the usuall choice for a wind ensemble, but I've never been able to play anything too shallow.
I welcome any suggestions. Thx. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9041 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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No doubt you'll get a bunch of mouthpiece advice so let me concentrate on something else-sound concept.
It's possible to be blowing your guts out and still not match the lead/section. I know, I've done it. There is a tendency to play too spread a sound when playing loudly. You might try concentrating on a more focused sound. Instead of thinking of your sound filling a 360 degree projection, concentrate on a more focused sound. Maybe a corkscrew drilling out towards our receiver.
One volume exercise I got from a teacher who had studied with Schilke is, I think. page 125. It's playing a note, then the next down, return to the first, down to the next, back up again, etc. But instead of playing it fast, play each tone -no rhythm- as loudly as you can.
When all else fails. . a 13A4A, LOL. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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bach_again Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 2481 Location: Northern Ireland
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Very possible you are dulling your sound over blowing.
Resonance is key, overtones. Probably the loudest player I have ever heard is Bryan Davis. He barely looks like he is working. He turned to me on a rehearsal I was fortunate to sit in on and absolutely crushes a Cat Anderson style solo. He turns to me "did it look like I was working hard?" "no" "I wasn't".
If you can back off and figure out a more efficient approach, I think you will be happier long term. Peter Bond's book "The Singing Trumpet" is conceptually amazing - check that out!! Find that ring in your sound. Then you don't have to work half as hard _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Michael Barkley Quartet - Portals:
https://michaelbarkley.bandcamp.com/album/portals
The best movie trumpet solo?
https://youtu.be/OnCnTA6toMU |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Forte means "strong". Think about having a strong tone, and let the volume follow rather than concentrating on volume first. Think of volume as the eefct, not the cause: or better still, a side effect rather than the target. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Work on your resonance and efficiency, that's what we all have to constantly do. It could mean fixing some posture things. It could mean opening and/or relaxing your aperture. It could mean using more air. It could mean using less air!
The main thing is you have to figure it out with diligent listening and practicing. Equipment can definitely help but your ears and brain are the most important tools for getting your sound rich, full, and projecting. Lots of thoughtful experimentation. |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1839 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Help Playing Louder |
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cheiden wrote: | I've never been the strongest player and now I find myself in a wind ensemble where I struggle to be heard over the group. |
So people sitting at a distance agree that you cannot be heard when playing with the ensemble?
Or are you saying, YOU cannot hear yourself over the rest of the ensemble.
These are two different things. Of course, both could be true for you.
cheiden wrote: | I
My current setup is a Bach 1.5C with a slightly smaller rim married to a ML Bach 43/43. I've experimented with using a Schilke Symphony M3 and a Bach 6 and while both allow me to player louder neither produce a sound that projects as much as I'd like and both are taxing to play.
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I've played Bach's with 43 leadpipes and with 43 bells but never both on the same trumpet. Separately, for me, they gave a more open, broader sound with more spread.
It would be helpful for you to borrow a stock Bach 25/37 or Xeno and see if that resolves the problem. OK - that would be pretty expensive solution.
Next route might be mouthpieces using your present trumpet. If you could get access to a Warburton kit, it might help zero in on a general strategy. Start with the M cup and perhaps a Warburton 6 backbore. The idea is not to blow harder, but to be heard and hear yourself.
Finally a single mouthpiece experiment. You can get mouthpieces on trial. Try the 3CM (not 3C). It has a rather complex sound with good feedback.
Adding weight to the trumpet and mouthpiece can help with projection but might make your feedback worse. |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3621
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Help Playing Louder |
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cheiden wrote: | I've never been the strongest player and now I find myself in a wind ensemble where I struggle to be heard over the group. This makes for way too much blasting on my part and the predictable hit on my endurance.
My current setup is a Bach 1.5C with a slightly smaller rim married to a ML Bach 43/43. |
Your mouthpiece works fine for a lot of players in wind ensembles. Maybe you should establish a nice, comfortable mezzo forte and adjust from there. My guess is that you will be heard just fine in the audience without having to play "over the group" and your endurance will improve. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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To clarify, it’s not a problem of hearing myself. The conductor can’t hear me well enough and continues to ask for more. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm...boy, that must be some special kind of conductor to be able to single out one trumpet player while a full orchestra is playing and say he can't hear you. Not saying it's impossible but....
George _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 3:16 am Post subject: |
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The hardware seems to be ok so it's probably an embouchure thing. Ever tried to play a little lower in the mouthpiece?
edit: I forgot, a bigger throat can help like a #25 (3.81 mm) or #24 (3.88 mm). Even a #25 will make a lot of difference. A bigger bb is questionable as it will change sound and projection.
Last edited by delano on Sat May 21, 2022 3:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Bigger breath and smaller mouthpiece.
I was a 1.5 guy and a shallow breather. An Austin TA-1 top with a Legends T backbore worked wonders for me.
Now I have to be careful I don’t overpower the section. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3317 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Have you previously played 'main melody lines' in similar size ensembles and NOT had that problem?
This might not apply to your situation but, some players seem to hold back because they want to blend into the sound - and want to not have their part be distinctly noticeable. That can be fine for harmony and texture, but the 'interesting' notes do need to be heard and noticed.
Use the needed loudness to be heard in the last audience row at the appropriate level. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Andy above; I’d try a Bach 37/25 and see if that helps. Much more focus and center with that horn than a 43/43, and more resistance appropriate with a larger C cup mouthpiece.
Aside from that, I believe trying to model your sound after someone like Maurice Murphy should be helpful. Full, centered, brilliant and effortlessly powerful; crackling electricity. All that stuff. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1801
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Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Generally you aren't going to get massively more volume from equipment changes. However, at a distance, equipment can aid in a few more decibels.
Easy fix would be getting obstacles out of you way, the easiest one being the music stand as well as getting your trumpet not pointing at the back of somebody. If you're making a great sound and the audience can see your bell, they will have a better chance at being able to hear you.
If you're going to go the equipment route: see if a different trumpet makes a significant difference, if not, you can stick to yours. I wouldn't drill a bigger hole (would make a dull sound duller). Shallower would aid in those cutting overtones if you cannot rely on sheer volume.
In general, getting a powerful sound is more about getting out of your own way (lips) than pushing or trying harder. Jaw04 has some great advice. |
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Aj Regular Member
Joined: 14 May 2006 Posts: 83
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Without hearing you play I would suggest volume comes from resonance in the body as Greg Spence (Mystery to Mastery) taught me.
After I learnt to 'hum, sing, play' from Greg, my resonance opened right up. Big sound, without much effort, so much easier to play too.
HUM loudly - MMMM AHHH OOO and recognize the feeling in the body. Try to get that 'humming feeling' when you play.
Greg kind of explains it here, but I had lessons...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQXCPZnPxgM&t=16s
You may also need to play with a more open aperture and work on a straightening your airstream which Greg advocates. I'll leave it up to the experts to argue the pros and cons of open or closed (lips buzzing).
Failing all that... drill a bigger hole in ya mouthpiece. _________________ Mr Inbetween |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1839 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | To clarify, it’s not a problem of hearing myself. The conductor can’t hear me well enough and continues to ask for more. |
So it's not a player feedback problem but a projection problem.
OK - with your present trumpet - try adding a mouthpiece weight then maybe heavy bottom valve caps. To you it may sound darker, but in front of the bell the sound will be more brilliant. This changes the way the trumpet "feels" - you may or may not like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi33YU6YUZA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zugArUcAG8
You might want to research the "singer's format". I suspect this is not a problem of decibels but of producing the correct mix of frequencies to allow you to be heard.
The easiest test of this is to just borrow a Bach 25/37 or clone. If that's better, you then tinker with mouthpieces and weights if you need to.
I've been assuming you are playing in a wind ensemble rather than in a jazz band. I'm pretty sure if you stuck a Vizzutti or 15A4A in your 43/43 everyone would hear you - it just would not be a symphonic sound. |
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X200 Regular Member
Joined: 28 Mar 2022 Posts: 49
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I played tuba in a community band where the conductor claimed that I didn't play loud enough. I told him that was all the volume I was ever going to comfortably (and musically) have and suggested having the entire band play at a reasonable level. It worked like a charm and sounded better according to my audience members.
I'll bet the OP and their equipment are just fine. Many conductors fail to recognize that live groups or sections within are almost always too loud. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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X200 wrote: | I played tuba in a community band where the conductor claimed that I didn't play loud enough. I told him that was all the volume I was ever going to comfortably (and musically) have and suggested having the entire band play at a reasonable level. It worked like a charm and sounded better according to my audience members.
I'll bet the OP and their equipment are just fine. Many conductors fail to recognize that live groups or sections within are almost always too loud. |
I confess that this is no small part of the problem. The band plays too loud generally and the trumpets are outnumbered. On the other hand there are other trumpet players who seem to cut through much more effectively than I. I have minimal hope the band will quiet down and I'm exploring modest adjustments to try and bridge the gap. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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GeorgeB wrote: | Hmmm...boy, that must be some special kind of conductor to be able to single out one trumpet player while a full orchestra is playing and say he can't hear you. Not saying it's impossible but....
George |
What I failed to mention is that I play 1st. And it's not just section playing. The conductor has actually stopped songs when I start playing a solo and he said he couldn't hear it well enough. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8921 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | I was a 1.5 guy and a shallow breather. An Austin TA-1 top with a Legends T backbore worked wonders for me. |
I'm intrigued about the TA-1. When I play a Bach 6 (standard drill and backbore) with a deep V cup I can tell it's noticably louder but the tone is too dark to carry. It makes me wonder if a shallower V cup would retain some of the volume without going dark. I repeat that I just can't play most shallow cup pieces. Yamaha/Schilke B cup yes, A cup no. I've read about lead-type pieces for folks that struggle with shallow but never had a chance to try such a piece. And now that I think of it, I'd prefer not to go a whole lot brighter, just better projection. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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