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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:06 am Post subject: Circle of Fifths |
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Do you use it in your warm up and/or daily drills? How? _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:23 am Post subject: |
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I do some major scales,
1 sharp
1 flat
2 sharp
2 flat
etc. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Jay. I'm doing more CO5 drills than ever. Trying to get sounds off the page and into my head. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Don't know what happened o my post, but here goes again.
In warm-ups never a conscious use.
In playing & analyzing, all the time. A ii-V root movement is so much a part of traditional Western harmony, there must be a piece to your question I'm missing. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 614 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I do a lot of !-IV-V arpeggios in warm-up. Melodically pleasant. |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think of it as "circle of fifths," but I'll often go through all 12 major scales. And, Arban #20 follows a circle of fifths (counterclockwise fourths). I play through that Arban exercise a lot. It's fun to vary the rhythms or do scales or arpeggios. I just make it up as I go, following the chord structure, which is better for my brain than reading it. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:58 am Post subject: |
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I play all major scales regularly, but not as warm-ups. When you get my age
( 86 ) you can't afford to waste wear and tear on the chops if you are facing a tough practice or concert. My warmup ? A few expanding scales. The fewer the better.
George _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 7:27 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Don't know what happened o my post, but here goes again.
In warm-ups never a conscious use.
In playing & analyzing, all the time. A ii-V root movement is so much a part of traditional Western harmony, there must be a piece to your question I'm missing. |
Don't understand. What's "conscious" use? Do you mean you just don't think about scales, degrees, etc.? _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 9:58 am Post subject: |
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It just means that, while many exercises might have an underlying pattern based on root movement of a fifth, that is not the goal of playing those exercises. Their use of the cycle is not conscious.
That is contrasted with playing exercises like scales which run through the cycle of fifths and playing chord progressions that are intended to give you technical fluency when playing these cycles. In this respect this IS conscious, , until it's not. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Got it, thanks! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Circle of Fifths |
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jhatpro wrote: | Do you use it in your warm up and/or daily drills? How? |
Personally, I prefer to use the cycle of fourths, because I think of intervals as going up.
When I look at a standard II-V-I, I see the first chord (minor seventh chord) moving up a perfect fourth to the V chord (a dominant chord) moving up a perfect fourth to the I chord, a major chord.
When I look at an old standard like All The Things You Are, I see lots of up-a-fourth chord movement, and practicing the cycle of fourths helps orient my fingers and my ears to that chord movement. I see no up-a-fifth chord movement in that tune, nor do I see much of that in most jazz standards.
Those who have any of my books from the past few years have probably noticed that I have presented things in all keys using the cycle of fourths. I find that learning things by going through closely-related keys helps me to understand their structure better. In other words, play it in one key, then add one flat (or remove one sharp) and do it in the next key. I find that to be much more effective than trying to learn in all twelve keys by going up (or down) in half-steps.
By the way, my latest book, Trumpet Voodoo, presents everything in all twelve keys using the cycle of fourths and I don’t know about anybody else, but it sure helps me when I practice in all the keys daily. _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Just downloaded it, Rich. I see what you mean! _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 171 Location: Spain
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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When the chords move by semitones, I have a harder time following the changes, for example, in the standard, well you needn't.
Moving things around the circle of fourths or fifths seems easier to me. For example, the bridge of a rhythm changes, that's why in my routine I practice more the movement by tones or semitones.
I feel like it makes the brain and fingers work harder. I'm not making anything up, there's Clarke. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sun May 22, 2022 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Cycle of Fifths means the root movement to the tone down a Fifth.
Some people (I am one) find it easier to conceptualize the same chord root movement as a Cycle of Fourths, but when they do that, the root movement is up a Fourth.
If it's a Cycle of Fourths, it's a Fourth up. (C up to an F)
If it's a Cycle of Fifths, it's a Fifth down. (C down to F).
Same note names, but scoring/orchestration can be different _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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JPHB Regular Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2021 Posts: 17 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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You should practice all jazz related licks, phrases, material: chromatically, whole tone, min 3, maj 3, cycle of 4ths, cycle of 5ths, and tri-tone sequence |
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JPHB Regular Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2021 Posts: 17 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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You should practice all jazz related licks, phrases, material: chromatically, whole tone, min 3, maj 3, cycle of 4ths, cycle of 5ths, and tri-tone sequence |
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | Just downloaded it, Rich. I see what you mean! |
Followed your lead Jim! Thanks Rich! Couldn't wait until tomorrow morning to break the seal! Late night review in process!
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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