View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:08 am Post subject: Tight slotting good or a hindrance? |
|
|
Do we really want a horn with tight, impeccable slotting?
My impression is that pitches can change depending on their pitch environment. An F# may be acoustically dead-on in one key but may need deviating from its exact acoustical center in another key.
Watch and listen to a violinist. Every F# they play, depending on scale, is not the same. It's contextual. Probably one example of loose flexibility in pitch would be a Committee. Perhaps a Shires would be the other end of the range.
Locked-in lotting will surely help you land squarely on some notes depending on the scale. But wouldn't that hinder one's options? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with your premise. I find that, unless I'm playing with only piano or organ accompaniment, individual pitches change with the key and chord in which they fall. A pitch as tonic or dominant is not the same as that note as the major 3rd of a chord, for example.
Also, I find that playing alongside other trumpet players that rely on their instrument's inherent tuning makes it almost impossible to find the ensemble's pitch. It's not enough for the section to play in tune with itself (which would be nice, right?), but that section needs to find its place in the ensemble and play in tune with woodwinds, brass and strings, too. Sometimes, I wonder if the idea of strong slotting cultivates a lack of listening in the player.
On the other hand, a loose slotting instrument creates headaches at least as painful, if not more so. My struggle has always been to cleanly land notes in technical passages or to make clean attacks at the start or after long periods of rest measures. This is the area I'm currently focussed on during the summer off-season.
Your mention of Shires immediately brought back my favorite characteristic of the CVLA-L I tried last week. It had fairly narrow, distinct slots that made playing accurately easy, but it didn't feel "locked down" on the pitch, as I recall. The XL was definitely looser, in that respect. Whether this was down to design or the individual horns I played, I can't say. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Shark01 Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2017 Posts: 283
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
It’s a mixed bag, with tighter slotting I get easier attacks with better intonation, but lose flexibility (like slurring) and the ability to color notes.
So I love tighter slotting on C trumpets for orchestral applications but don’t like it on solo applications....although opinions differ because I just bought a trumpet with the tightest slotting I have yet played but yet it is marketed as a horn for soloists.
When I want to punish myself, I’ll try to play solos on a tight slotting trumpet WITH a heavy backbore......ugh. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
I once asked a good friend, long-time Philadelphus Orch player, how they played so well in tune. He said, "We don't play in tune. We play out of tune, together." _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:03 am Post subject: Slotting and pitch |
|
|
A pre-covid outdoor 4th of July concert I was on in Mesquite,Nevada and saw some unusual playing conditions to say the least. 109 degrees with the concert band set up directly in front of the fireworks. Prior to the "big bangs" we did "Fanfare For The Common Man". It was truly unbelievable with the four trumpets absolutely in tune with each other. When we finished we all looked at each other and said "did that really just happen?" It sort of made "Stars and Stripes" playing along with the fireworks inconsequential.
My point is that listening to other players overrides any technical aspects of the instrument.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
As Shofarguy already pointed out, being in tune with other musicians (especailly in an environment without a piano or other fixed pitch instrument in the mix) is really dependent upon where your next note fits into the chord of those playing around you.
This is really obvious in a quintet or smaller ensemble, as you can hear each voice individually better and there's rarely much doubling of pitches going on. The real nightmare in this sort of environment? Somebody staring at a clip-on bell tuner, or tuner app on their music stand, instead of listening to what's going on around them.
The 'correct' pitch is quite often not what the tuner says is 'dead on' for your note. It has more to do with where you fit in, the root, third, fifth, etc., each having different placements to sound 'correct' to the human ear, independent of what the tuner says.
If you're staring at the tuner, you're likely not listening to where you fit in around you. It's fine for exploring pitch tendencies on your own and learning how a given instrument behaves on various problematic notes. It's a nightmare playing in an ensemble when one or more of the members uses their digital tuner as an excuse not to listen and adjust to the others.
An interesting experiment is to get three players to tune chords together, having them take turns being the root, third and fifth on the same chord, or moving to a different chord, where the note they were just playing 'dead on with the tuner' as the root, is suddenly not the root anymore.
All that said, I'm not sure any trumpet slots 'tight enough' to make it problematic to adjust for the relatively minor adjustments needed for what adjustments are usually used as you play with other musicians.
The main benefit to a horn with 'loose slots' seems to come from things like lip slurs, and shakes, being much easier than on tighter horns. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
The intent of my question is simpler than that. What I'm trying to find out is, is it really advantageous to have a horn where the pitch is very locked in as contrasted with one which gives you more leeway? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Tony and Randy are right.
Your question makes only sense if the music you (want to) make needs the possibility to really bend the notes like Miles often did. If that's not the case a good and tight slotting horn is better.
Playing Moanin' like Lee Morgan did is next to impossible on a Yamaha Artist horn.
But for not really developed players a tight slotting horn can be difficult and/or tiring to play I presume. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | The intent of my question is simpler than that. What I'm trying to find out is, is it really advantageous to have a horn where the pitch is very locked in as contrasted with one which gives you more leeway? |
In my opinion, like with most things trumpet related, it depends on the player. I prefer a tight-slotting horn and rely more on mechanical pitch adjustments. I like the feeling of playing "down the center" of the tone. For me, this reduces fatigue and maintains a consistency of tone color.
Others prefer to do the work with the embouchure. For example, one of my students has smaller hands and using mechanical adjustments a lot changes the balance of the horn in her left hand and can disrupt her embouchure. _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | The intent of my question is simpler than that. What I'm trying to find out is, is it really advantageous to have a horn where the pitch is very locked in as contrasted with one which gives you more leeway? |
Is any horn as 'locked in' as you describe here? You can lip up/down or adjust with slides notes on just about any horn. That, or I've yet to play a horn anywhere near as tight slotting as you imply. Some are easier to bend than others, but if you need to bend a note a mile to get it in tune, something else is probably wrong.
I'm repeating myself from earlier, but loose slotting applies more to slurring up/down between notes, or doing shakes in a big band sort of situation. Even my stuffy old Bach 37 can be moved off it's 'problematic' notes, like the low 4th line D, with the chops. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
So, even though that F# is played differently in varying pitch environments, one would not be handicapped when playing on instruments with inflexible slotting? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
I start my daily warm up on pitch bending, and even on my "inflexible" setup, I can bend anything in the first 3 partials down a full step or more, with less flexibility starting in the 4th partial and on up. Outside of about 25 cents, the tone distortion starts to become quite noticeable. But if I'm out more than 25 cents, there's almost always some other issue.
Top line F# and G as the third of D and Eb respectively can be problematic at times, but in theory, those should only have to be moved 17 cents lower with the embouchure if the rest of the horn is in tune. Alternate fingerings, judiciously applied, can be used mitigate those kinds of issues when the change in tone color is acceptable.
And for C trumpet, I have a trigger on the main slide... _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I prefer tight slotting horns but can adjust and bend as needed with only modest effort. It's possible that a looser slotting horn could reduce that effort but I feel the tighter slotting horn makes everything more secure and it's worth the extra effort. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
irith Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 879
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I used to prefer much looser horns than I do now, for whatever reason. There's a certain security and evenness to a (well-done) tighter slotting horn that's really nice to have.
Interesting you mention Shires as that's exactly what I think of for a great horn with tighter slots. _________________ Bach, Schilke, Pickett mostly |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks, folks! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ericmpena Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Nov 2021 Posts: 262 Location: Kyle, TX
|
Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I prefer tight slotting. I’ve never had it hinder my playing. Plus I can still adjust my tuning with my lips and/or slides. A tight horn doesn’t prevent that.
Loose horns will always feel too slippery for me. It’s gets way too muddy, especially in the upper register. If I play my C scale quickly and the upper A, B, C don’t slot almost as tightly as the notes in my mid register, then the horn is too loose for me. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
|
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | I once asked a good friend, long-time Philadelphus Orch player, how they played so well in tune. He said, "We don't play in tune. We play out of tune, together." |
Sounds like our band.
George _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
|
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Some people want to have absolute flexibility and sole responsibility for where the pitch lands.
Some people want their horn to find the pitch for them.
Then there are the rest of us who want the ability to shift the pitch a little here and there as the harmonic structure of the key dictates (or the drifting horn player next to you....) without getting tired or losing tonal quality to fighting the horn, but still appreciate a little security in knowing where the horn's center is.
While there are extremes in terms of certain horns being one way or the other, there are plenty of horns in the middle. It doesn't have to be a binary choice. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Can someone give a few examples of horns on both ends of the extreme? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
Back to top |
|
|
OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
|
Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
kehaulani wrote: | Can someone give a few examples of horns on both ends of the extreme? |
While it is tempting to point to a Bach 180-37 Heavy, I think the 19-teens New Holton Trumpet is by far the most straight-jacket like horn ever (Bach performed on one). On the loose side, the standard answer is a gen-2 Committee, but Byron Autrey's personal B2 with his own leadpipe makes that look tight. (And his C he built can play a half step off effortlessly with no indication whatsoever in tone - the B2 comes close) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|