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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 188 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:37 am Post subject: E flat versus picc |
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I’m playing a piece of music with a short section in the middle of the 1st trumpet part that calls for the use of a picc. My picc is in another location but I have my E flat cornet. I decided to try the cornet which led me to wonder why E flat trumpets and cornets are so much less common than piccs. There is the obvious need to transpose parts written in B flat but I find that the E flat cornet is just as secure in the upper range, sounds better in the lower range and has a wider overall range without the need for a fourth valve. Perhaps there is a historical reason. |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 697 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:03 am Post subject: |
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1. Composer/Arranger as opposed to experienced players?
2. Eb's rarely get the love they deserve. My theory is that in the working range for most of your playing, the Eb odd number harmonics coincide with the Bb even harmonics, resulting in some degree of tuning problems for many new to the Eb players. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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Rather high Baroque music written for natural trumpet in D.
I'd rather play that on my picc with the A leadpipe than on my Eb cornet. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:29 am Post subject: |
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FWIW Malcolm McNab is known to use his 4-valve Eb quite a bit in places scored for other keyed horns. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 697 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:14 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | FWIW Malcolm McNab is known to use his 4-valve Eb quite a bit in places scored for other keyed horns. |
There was a lot of interest about the 4 valve Eb replacing all other types of trumpet on TH about 12 years ago, as I recall.
Here is part of that thread.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1652810 _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Danbassin Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:38 am Post subject: |
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The Picc* part for The Rite of Spring sits amazingly well on Eb trumpet. I got that tip from Manny Laureano and was fortunate to be able to test this out on what to date is my only performance of that work. I currently own a wonderful 4-Valve Eb trumpet which is very useful for otherwise exhausting pops and contemporary music. That said, as great as it plays, it doesn’t compete with my C trumpet in terms of sound, blow, intonation, etc, but when a slightly smaller sound and somewhat increased security in the upper register is called for, it can oftentimes be the best tool for the job. I also have a Schilke G1l-4 which can also bridge the gap from Big Horns to Picc. To date, I have not played an Eb Cornet which plays as well and easily as my big horns and these aforementioned smaller ones, but credit to you if it gives you the sound you (and your conductor/section) want and the security you need.
*we should keep in mind that the piccolo is essentially the newest trumpet (with respect to the firebirds, Flumpets, etc.) and that the vast majority of what we play on that instrument was written for a instrument three times larger than the piccolo. Also with the Stravinsky and other repertoire examples, the petite trompette en re was expected, not the modern Bb/A instrument. I owned an early 20th century Mahillon piccolo, which is a really cool instrument in its own right. However, we can really point to Schilke’s first piccolo in 1966 (better yet, the 1971 P5-4 design) as the dawn of the modern piccolo trumpet era. Prior to then, small D trumpets, F and G “piccolos” and similar ‘medium’ sized horns were the small trumpets available to great soloists and orchestral players.
Happy practicing!
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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random_abstract Regular Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2013 Posts: 72 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Great thread! As an occasional orchestral player who doesn’t really live in that world, I’m always interested to hear about the solutions you guys employ to deal with the more strenuous and demanding parts of the job… and also how these alternatives evolve over time.
I’m curious, is it necessary these days for 2nd/3rd players to have some kind of Eb/D or picc setup, or can it all mostly be done on C and Bb? |
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Danbassin Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:17 am Post subject: |
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random_abstract wrote: | Great thread! As an occasional orchestral player who doesn’t really live in that world, I’m always interested to hear about the solutions you guys employ to deal with the more strenuous and demanding parts of the job… and also how these alternatives evolve over time.
I’m curious, is it necessary these days for 2nd/3rd players to have some kind of Eb/D or picc setup, or can it all mostly be done on C and Bb? |
Although there has been an explosion of baroque/natural trumpet playing in solos and ensemble work over the past few decades, any given 3-Trumpet Bach orchestral work (in D-Major) will most often be played with trpts 1&2 on A picc and 3 on D (some players actually prefer using Eb here, to give more tuning options in avoiding ‘open’ notes). Then, when you consider practices within the highest levels of the profession, a 3rd player is oftentimes Associate Principal, leaving them leading the sections on pieces on the first half of the program - also oftentimes contemporary works where having a smaller horn comes in handy.
Contrary to your hunch, it’s the 3rd (and sometimes 2nd) players who may require the largest arsenal of horns - principal trumpeters will typically only reach for the Bb if they want that sound on a piece (or for low notes in the Carmen prelude, etc.)
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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The reason there is less written for a high Eb trumpet is that it is an outlier type of horn. The Eb parts one usually sees are from the 19th century in the main and are written for the lower E, Eb or D valved alto trumpet of the time.
Piccolos, which came to the fore in the late 50's early 60's, most notably with Selmer's 4 valve instrument were used for baroque repertoire and are the end of a period of development of higher and higher pitched instruments. High D trumpets were developed for playing Bach and Handel, and written for by some composers, such as Stravinsky (think end of Petrouchka and Rite of Spring). Eb and F trumpets came into being for the same reasons - outside of the brass band world of soprano Eb sax horns / cornets.
These D, Eb and F instruments are nothing like those we see today. Smaller bore size and played remarkably like a piccolo. The horn in this image of Eskdale https://tinyurl.com/4s6excdx until recently was in Australia and the instrument he recorded Brandenburg 2 on. It plays rather well!
Their use waned as the piccolo was developed for the high Bach etc. parts and it was only relatively recently that they were seriously worked on to get a broader sound that could be successfully used in orchestras instead of a Bb or C.
The modern, larger belled 4 (and 3) valve Eb trumpets are a weapon of choice when needed. A recent concert which was a tad taxing and included a lot of exposed playing saw me drag one out of the box of tricks. It was a bit of a game changer and from what I could hear of the broadcast recording, worked well.
Bottom line, use what works.
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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MannyLaureano Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2003 Posts: 405 Location: Plymouth, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:13 am Post subject: |
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What it boils down to is whether the composer actually is writing for the piccolo as an "aid" to playing a high passage or as a completely different sound from the Bb or C.
The Rite of Spring was written at a time when Ravel and Stravinsky wanted an extension of the standard sound but with security. The D trumpet was considered enough to get the job done. When Vacchiano, Glantz, Voisin and other players who were present during the first half of the 20th century played the high trumpets, they wanted as close to their natural sounds as they could get. A notable exception was Benny Baker, who played among the first public performances of the 2nd Brandenburg with Toscanini on the King Mini trumpet, or piccolo.
Vacchiano and his colleagues preferred the sound of the F trumpet for the Bach oratorios in the earlier part of their careers, considering the piccolo trumpet to be a gimmick, or not a legitimate trumpet sound. Eventually, they relented and played piccolo because they realized there was no getting around its utility as a tool to get the job done. Adolf Scherbaum and Maurice Andre made great cases for the idea that a piccolo could sound rich and beautiful.
Bud Herseth also contributed to the idea of the piccolo in the orchestra when his performance of the final section in Petrushka made the composer sit up and take notice. Stravinsky said it was the sound he envisioned for that section, and it took Bud's notoriety and flawless execution to make the case. I'll assume Vince Cichowicz was playing second to Bud at the time Stravinsky was still alive. _________________ Liviu Librescu-1930-2007- Holocaust survivor and hero during VA Tech massacre |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:06 am Post subject: |
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A lot of discussion of Eb trumpet here ---- but the OP said cornet. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:29 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | A lot of discussion of Eb trumpet here ---- but the OP said cornet. |
Rwwilson wrote: | I’m playing a piece of music with a short section in the middle of the 1st trumpet part that calls for the use of a picc. My picc is in another location but I have my E flat cornet. I decided to try the cornet which led me to wonder why E flat trumpets and cornets are so much less common than piccs. There is the obvious need to transpose parts written in B flat but I find that the E flat cornet is just as secure in the upper range, sounds better in the lower range and has a wider overall range without the need for a fourth valve. Perhaps there is a historical reason. |
The OP happens to have his Eb cornet with him while his piccolo tpt is in another location, but he mentions Eb trumpet and cornet. His opening sentence is about a "1st trumpet part," and because most orchestral players (like contributor Mr. Manny Laureano, Prin. Tpt. Minnesota Orch.) are the ones accustomed to transposing and would have an Eb tpt vs. Eb cornet, I think that is why so many responses have been in relation to the Eb trumpet and not cornet. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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MannyLaureano wrote: | What it boils down to is whether the composer actually is writing for the piccolo as an "aid" to playing a high passage or as a completely different sound from the Bb or C.
The Rite of Spring was written at a time when Ravel and Stravinsky wanted an extension of the standard sound but with security. The D trumpet was considered enough to get the job done. When Vacchiano, Glantz, Voisin and other players who were present during the first half of the 20th century played the high trumpets, they wanted as close to their natural sounds as they could get. A notable exception was Benny Baker, who played among the first public performances of the 2nd Brandenburg with Toscanini on the King Mini trumpet, or piccolo.
Vacchiano and his colleagues preferred the sound of the F trumpet for the Bach oratorios in the earlier part of their careers, considering the piccolo trumpet to be a gimmick, or not a legitimate trumpet sound. Eventually, they relented and played piccolo because they realized there was no getting around its utility as a tool to get the job done. Adolf Scherbaum and Maurice Andre made great cases for the idea that a piccolo could sound rich and beautiful.
Bud Herseth also contributed to the idea of the piccolo in the orchestra when his performance of the final section in Petrushka made the composer sit up and take notice. Stravinsky said it was the sound he envisioned for that section, and it took Bud's notoriety and flawless execution to make the case. I'll assume Vince Cichowicz was playing second to Bud at the time Stravinsky was still alive. |
Some great nuggets here. Thank you for sharing, Mr. Laureano! |
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Rwwilson Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Sep 2019 Posts: 188 Location: Austin Texas
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Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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I want to thank all of the knowledgeable people who responded to my post. I learned a lot about the evolution and use of trumpets in different keys. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Danbassin wrote: "... any given 3-Trumpet Bach orchestral work (in D-Major) will most often be played with trpts 1&2 on A picc and 3 on D (some players actually prefer using Eb here, to give more tuning options in avoiding ‘open’ notes)."
That confuses me. How would playing the "open notes" on 2nd valve give you more options? I also see no advantages or additional options in valve combinations 1/2 instead of 1 or 2/3 instead of 1/2. It would also turn an f# trill (open to 2nd) into an e# trill (2nd to 1st).
Obviously, if your trumpet happens to be better in pitch generally in Eb rather than in D or if you bought an Eb only trumpet for the usual Haydn/Hummel/Neruda, that would make sense.
Please enlighten me if I have missed anything. |
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Danbassin Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:09 am Post subject: |
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mr oakmount wrote: | Danbassin wrote: "... any given 3-Trumpet Bach orchestral work (in D-Major) will most often be played with trpts 1&2 on A picc and 3 on D (some players actually prefer using Eb here, to give more tuning options in avoiding ‘open’ notes)."
That confuses me. How would playing the "open notes" on 2nd valve give you more options? I also see no advantages or additional options in valve combinations 1/2 instead of 1 or 2/3 instead of 1/2. It would also turn an f# trill (open to 2nd) into an e# trill (2nd to 1st).
Obviously, if your trumpet happens to be better in pitch generally in Eb rather than in D or if you bought an Eb only trumpet for the usual Haydn/Hummel/Neruda, that would make sense.
Please enlighten me if I have missed anything. |
Sorry - I think I wrote that posts in a few installments, and was losing steam when talking about a strategy some respected colleagues (not myself) have commented on when playing 3rd trumpet, specifically, in Baroque D-Major works. As the first two players are playing piccolos, providing the fundamental in “B-Major” on the horn, rather than “C-Major”, allows more intonation flexibility (they say) in providing those foundational harmonies for the upper parts.
Fundamentally (pun intended), they feel that having more buttons down allows them greater pitch flexibility, where necessary. The necessity, one assumes, comes from the high-test pro playing situation imperative to ‘play well with others’ even when pitch may be drifting in an ensemble. I personally have played 3rd in situations like these only on a P5-4 in A or an E3L in D…and those situations were a long time ago.
Happy tuning, for each key on each horn!
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:19 am Post subject: |
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mr oakmount wrote: |
That confuses me. How would playing the "open notes" on 2nd valve give you more options? |
It's a very small thing, and probably doesn't make much difference to the choice of Eb vs D trumpet, but once in a while I've found that the option to move the 2nd slide out for sharp notes, without effecting the rest of the horn like the main tuning slide would, can be useful. I think people sometimes overlook this possibility, but particularly with a horn that has quirky intonation, the 2nd slide can be handy. |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Dear Daniel
Dear Steve
Thanks for the fast answers. It is starting to make sense to me
It's true, matching the sound and intonation quirks of piccolo trumpets above you can be quite tricky. I often play church gigs where my former trumpet teacher plays the 1st trumpet part of Handel's Hallelujah on a Mahillon piccolo trumpet (more like a sopranino sax horn), and after trying a piccolo, a D-Trumpet and a Bach C-Trumpet, I found I could best match him on a rotary valve C ... it was all about finding the right frequency mix and figuring out which notes needed the most bending ... |
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