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Brassman19 Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 163 Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:25 pm Post subject: Which Olds Horn Slots More Accurately: Super, or Mendez? |
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Here's a question for all the TH Olds aficiondos out there.
I am in process of looking into and considering possibly getting for my "arsenal" one of two higher-end Olds models trumpets, either a Super, or the Mendez. However, my aims in thinking about doing so is I would like to get another Olds horn (I love Olds' trumpets and cornets) which blows pretty freely, is responsive, and, especially, which slots and plays very accurately in the center of notes, yet still has some flexibility in its tone. In terms of what I can possibly afford (app $800- $900), those are the two models I think are the most likely candidates.
What are your opinions regarding these two models, and my stated goals? Or should I consider another of their models too, or instead, such as the Studio (prior to the all-nickel version), or even something like a late 60's/early 70's Recording? _________________ 1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet, |
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Robert Rizzo Veteran Member
Joined: 03 May 2007 Posts: 136 Location: Melbourne
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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I have only ever played the Olds Recording & the Olds Super Recording; & you're right, the thing that struck me & has stuck with me about those trumpets was the slotting/note connections, along with the richness of tone. I have a feeling the Olds Super Recording has more room in the tone & larger slots?
Sorry, I have not played an Olds Super or Mendez, so I cannot comment on those instruments. But, I am interested & wished to comment on the topic. _________________ Robert Rizzo |
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Tivolian Regular Member
Joined: 22 May 2018 Posts: 86 Location: Upstate New York
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Which Olds Horn Slots More Accurately: Super, or Mendez |
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Brassman19 wrote: | Here's a question for all the TH Olds aficiondos out there.
I am in process of looking into and considering possibly getting for my "arsenal" one of two higher-end Olds models trumpets, either a Super, or the Mendez. However, my aims in thinking about doing so is I would like to get another Olds horn (I love Olds' trumpets and cornets) which blows pretty freely, is responsive, and, especially, which slots and plays very accurately in the center of notes, yet still has some flexibility in its tone. In terms of what I can possibly afford (app $800- $900), those are the two models I think are the most likely candidates.
What are your opinions regarding these two models, and my stated goals? Or should I consider another of their models too, or instead, such as the Studio (prior to the all-nickel version), or even something like a late 60's/early 70's Recording? |
My first trumpet was a 1955 Super and I now own a 1958 Mendez. I did not own them both at the same time, so my ability to compare is limited. Both are outstanding trumpets that slot well and have superb intonation. I would say the Mendez gets the nod just for the beauty of its tone. They both have an easy, relatively open blow. You can’t go wrong with either one, as long as it’s a good specimen. I’m not sure it’ll be easy to find a great Mendez in that price range. _________________ Tivolian |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5234 Location: ca.
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Mendez, also the most versatile horn they made, very misunderstood too. VERY different and very pro instrument. _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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What is misunderstood about it, ANA? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5234 Location: ca.
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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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The old saw that it's a hopped up Ambassador, somebody read that somewhere and they quote it.
The Mendez model is unique just like it's namesake.
I've studied them over the years.
The have unique ferrules, the receiver is Mendez only, water keys (most Olds in the era they started had trombone water keys), The conical graduation of the lead pipe and bell is different, the triggers of course.
The first model (1952) to have straight balusters throughout the model line.
Also first model to have single pin valve guides , The case is Mendez only, the finger ring, the bracing is very different, each came with a Mendez mouthpiece,
AND
Don't forget each Mendez had gold plated finger buttons (I'm sure Rafeal had something to do with this )
They play beautifully too.
Try one, you'll like it..... _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚
Last edited by A.N.A.Mendez on Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:45 am Post subject: |
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The Mendez model is based on his very favorite French Besson. It is one horn that I wouldn't mind having, the other is a great Chicago Benge.
I have a Super from the early 60s and it does not compare with the Bach 190/37 or Schilke B1 that I have.
Bear in mind that Mendez played his Olds in public performance but always used his old Besson on recordings.
R. Tomasek |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | Bear in mind that Mendez played his Olds in public performance but always used his old Besson on recordings.
R. Tomasek |
Do you think that was for endorser promotion or actual acoustic differences in the horns and their appropriateness for their playing environments? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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Christian K. Peters Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 1542 Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:34 am Post subject: Which Olds Horn slots harder |
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Hello all,
For me, the 1947 Olds Super I had, had more resistance than my Special. Possibly harder slots as well, though it has been a few years ago. That was disappointing for me, as I thought I had landed the grail. _________________ Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976 |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1475 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Mendez honored his contract with Olds and it made him a good sum of money. He was required to play it in public as did his sons when they performed with him.
When he signed with Olds, he was given (I believe) $10,000.00 and his wife was given a fur coat.
He thought about cancelling the deal, but his wife wanted the coat.
That deal was a money maker for Olds.
There is more about this in the Mendez forum, especially how unhappy he was with the first one presented to him.
R. Tomasek |
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Brassman19 Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2019 Posts: 163 Location: Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Well then, it sounds like the Mendez horn is what I should consider getting. Thanks for all the feedback. It has helped me a lot.
Now I have just one other question/concern regarding the Mendez trumpet, in particular, over its first and third slide triggers.
Those of you who have, or have played the Mendez horn, can you tell me, are its triggers easy to operate and adjust both together, and individually, to fine-tune its intonation while playing? The reason I ask is I have always had and played horns which have a third slide ring and first slide saddle on them (that is, until I got my 1962 Leonard Smith Contempora trumpet, which has/had a first slide trigger on it--More on that in a moment), so I am accustomed to adjusting for tuning by spreading my left hand's thumb and ring finger. In fact, so much so that I absolutely could not figure out how to coordinate things to use my Contempora's first slide trigger-- I ended up taking it off (though I retained its mounting brace on the valve block, and saved the trigger and all its parts, in case I ever decide to sell or trade it), and had an adjustable ring with lock box and screw added to the first slide's ferrule, so that I can play it.
I realize that the Mendez's triggers are unique, in that all one has to do to use them is squeeze together one's thumb and ring finger, which would seem to be a lot more natural than having to throw out one's left hand ring finger, while at the same time push your thumb against the first slide's trigger, causing both digits to have to move in the same direction at the same time (which is VERY awkward for me to try to do). In your experience, any of you who have played or also have horns with a third slide ring, and first slide saddle/ring, do you find it relatively easy and comfortable to also transition to play and adjust using your Mendez's triggers?
Thanks again for everybodies' thoughts and feedback to my questions.
Larry _________________ 1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet, |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2022 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm in agreement with several of the above posters; a good Mendez horn is a fantastic player. To me, the first trigger on the Mendez is easier than than the third to become accustomed to. Frankly, I removed my third trigger and didn't use it at all - just left the slide out about 1/4" and enjoyed life. Of course my Father was olds school and thought tuning slides were a waste of time. "Lip it!!!" I can still hear him say heatedly (well, what do you expect from an old trombonist??).
I had a '54 Ambassador (LA factory markings, at least) and a '52 Mendez (definitely LA) at the same time. The Ambassador was a REALLY nice player. In retrospect, I think it's tone quality was probably in the top ten horns I've ownded, but the Mendez... Ah, what a great horn. Valves like butter!! Simply a marvelous player and the fellow I sold it to agreed wholeheartedly. My Mendez played darker than I expected. The Recording I kept plays brighter than I expected, but every horn is different, aren't they? And players, too; and I don't really light most horns up. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording, '52 Mendez
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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patdublc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1059 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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I've been pondering the same fascination with Olds so I've started working on my collection. So many beautiful horns were made. My experience to date is that the Super Recording is all that. It just sings. It is pretty mouthpiece sensitive especially from second line G down. I haven't isolated the parameters yet that cause the mouthpiece sensitivity but I'm working on it. _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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A.N.A.Mendez Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005 Posts: 5234 Location: ca.
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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patdublc wrote: | I've been pondering the same fascination with Olds so I've started working on my collection. So many beautiful horns were made. My experience to date is that the Super Recording is all that. It just sings. It is pretty mouthpiece sensitive especially from second line G down. I haven't isolated the parameters yet that cause the mouthpiece sensitivity but I'm working on it. |
Nothing like starting at the top ! _________________ "There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
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Happy Canuck Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 366 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:20 pm Post subject: Don't Forget the Custom |
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Just a reminder that based on the Custom Codes http://rouses.net/trumpet/custom/custom.htm The Custom is basically a light weight Mendez.
The most frequent 'Custom' code on both the leadpipe and the bell is 37117 which translates to :
3 - Olds
7 - Mendez
1 - direct copy
17 - .017" thickness
No triggers and a fantastic horn!! _________________ Bill
Olds trumpets/GR Butcher 65.6M
Olds cornets/Sparx 4B
Olds Flugelhorn/GR leadpipe/GR Butcher 65.6FL |
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Bogey Factory Regular Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2019 Posts: 56 Location: Springfield, MO
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I currently own a Super, Mendez, and Recording. I have owned Ambassadors and an Opera. Of the Olds horns I've owned the Super is easily my favorite. It is flexible but has plenty of slot. I like my Recording but it is a stiffer responding horn than my Super. My Mendez is OK but unremarkable compared to the Super or Recording. The Ambassadors I've had were fine but again unremarkable. The Opera had a fantastic sound but I was unable to play it in tune. It was a real bear in an ensemble. _________________ Justin Shaw |
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aquaries Regular Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2017 Posts: 19 Location: Cape Coral, Florida
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:24 am Post subject: Mendez valves |
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I bought a new Mendez in 1961. The valve action is what sold me when I compared it to Conn & King. Of the few other trumpets I handled over the years none came close to the responsiveness of the Mendez valves. So I was wondering if anyone has knowledge of why the Mendez valves were so unique and if there are other models equivalent? _________________ 1960 Olds Mendez
1965 King Super 20 SS |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Bogey Factory wrote: | My Mendez is OK but unremarkable compared to the Super. | +1...I have only tried one, but not even close compared to the 5 Supers I was fortunate enough to find over the years.
Still own three of them, two of the original owners wanted to buy their two back
They are each wonderful, yet unique...so much fun to play- highly suggest picking one up if you can! |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2599
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 1947 Los Angeles Super Recording, a 1962 Fullerton Recording, a 1947 Los Angeles Super, a 1965 Fullerton Opera (Nickel Silver Bell), and a 1966 Fullerton Mendez. Here's how they play:
Super Recording: Excellent in every way.
Recording: The same as the Super Recording but a richer sound.
Super: I played this horn in front of a room full of jazz students along with my other Olds horns and asked for their opinion regarding the sound. Their opinion is that it was the least projecting of the Olds horns. It doesn't seem like that when you play it but that's the response I got from the students. Mine has the rare brass ring and it is extremely light weight, probably the lightest weight horn I own. Most of the Supers have the nickel silver ring and the weight fluctuated a lot over the production years. Mine has the loosest slots of the group.
Opera: A great horn. Great sound. Good slotting. It just takes some getting used to as it is quite different from the other Olds horns with a .468 bore and a different bell mandrel and bell material.
Mendez: The best slotting horn of the group, very secure and very similar to my pre-war French Besson Meha. An excellent sound (although not as rich as the Recording). A great horn in every way. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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AndyDavids Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2020 Posts: 177
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:36 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Here's how they play: | Thanks very much for the descriptions! I'm also looking for one- very helpful, actually the "This is Gold Jerry"
line from Seinfeld popped in my mind first |
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