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Proteus Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2010 Posts: 130 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:17 pm Post subject: No air thru the horn |
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For those who have not yet seen this (remarkable) demonstration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YIVc9wv6RI
And can anyone point me to the one on YouTube by Nick Drozdoff where he places the bell in the kitchen sink a super soapy solution and then plays a forte low C and then a forte high C...??[/url] _________________ Bach 239 C
Kanstul 700
Getzen Proteus 907S Bb
Bach Strad 37 Bb (70s)
ACB Doubler flugel
Getzen Capri cornet |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Acoustically, a trumpet is a tube closed at both ends. |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Do not draw a false conclusion. Air flow , from the player , IS required to play. No air flow = No power. No power = no sound. |
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Shifty Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2013 Posts: 258 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Do not draw a false conclusion. Air flow , from the player , IS required to play. No air flow = No power. No power = no sound. |
But the airflow FROM THE PLAYER doesn't NEED to go THROUGH the horn. (?) It normally has to, unless you're playing around like these guys.
So felt resistance is mostly acoustic (if that's the right term)? _________________ Getzen Eterna 700, Eterna 800
Conn Connstellation 28A, Victor 80A, Connqueror (1903)
ACB Doubler Flugelhorn |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1049 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Curious. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc
Last edited by stuartissimo on Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:21 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Shifty wrote: | ... So felt resistance is mostly acoustic (if that's the right term)? |
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There is also the 'felt resistance' associated with the size of the lip aperture and the amount of air flow. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2627
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?
The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1831
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Tom LeCompte wrote: | Acoustically, a trumpet is a tube closed at both ends. |
Kalijah can answer with more authority, but I believe this is not the case. The tube is very clearly open on one end (and a tube closed on both ends is no longer a tube).
Robert P wrote: | Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?
The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn. |
What would be the point of your demonstration, exactly? That the trumpet could be played like a trumpet? I'm not trying to be cheeky, genuinely don't understand. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6133 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:58 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?
The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn. |
Listen at 6:20 in the video. _________________ Bill Bergren |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1901 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:24 am Post subject: |
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On one hand, try playing tuba some time - you CAN'T push that much air, which means that what you are doing is setting up resonance in the air inside the horn. On the other hand, it takes a lot of air to get that resonance going. The same applies to all of the brass, but the projection works differently.
But air is still very necessary. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:40 am Post subject: |
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abontrumpet wrote: | but I believe this is not the case. The tube is very clearly open on one end |
On the mouthpiece side, you are at a node: the waveform is driven by the velocity of the lips, not the position. As in a closed end.
On the bell side, you have a huge impedance mismatch between the air in the horn and the air outside, so 99% of the energy is reflected back, so only 1% "leaks" out. Again, a closed tube.
Most of what trumpet makers think about are deviations from this ideal. (To take an obvious example, this model states bell thicness and material are irrelevant - only the flare matters)
Last edited by Tom LeCompte on Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1831
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Tom LeCompte wrote: | abontrumpet wrote: | but I believe this is not the case. The tube is very clearly open on one end |
On the bell side, you have a huge impedance mismatch between the air in the horn and the air outside, so 99% of the energy is reflected back, so only 1% "leaks" out. Again, a closed tube.) |
Yes, it is called a closed tube but in physics that is a tube with one closed end. There is no such thing as a double closed "tube" in physics. There is open (open on both ends) and closed (open on one end closed on the other). |
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Proteus Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2010 Posts: 130 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Here's the Nick Drozdoff vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SX4xXw_xXQ _________________ Bach 239 C
Kanstul 700
Getzen Proteus 907S Bb
Bach Strad 37 Bb (70s)
ACB Doubler flugel
Getzen Capri cornet |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | On the mouthpiece side, you are at a node: the waveform is driven by the velocity of the lips, not the position. As ina closed end. |
The mouthpiece cup is not a node. Nor is the lip aperture.
The first node is in the vicinity of the mouthpiece throat. The final node is in the vicinity of the bell at the impedance mismatch. (A pedal tone resonance has only those two nodes. One additional node and half-wave, is added for each harmonic.
Quote: | the waveform is driven by the velocity of the lips |
Perhaps you mean the frequency of pulsation. The air energy of each pulse of air through the lips replenishes the energy of each wave to restore was transmitted from the bell.
Sound power transmitted from the instrument = air power provided x efficiency
The air power applied is = air flow x air pressure
Interesting to note that the two trumpets with a common cup, as shown in the video. Would make the total "played" impedance about 1/2 as for one instrument.
That means the power input is divided between 2 instruments, The total sound output for two instruments would be about the same as for one for the same power input.
Last edited by kalijah on Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: |
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kalijah, are you a scientist/engineer/acoustician? Of course, anyone with enough interest could gain the knowledge, so I'm curious as to the source of all your knowledge.
My question has no hidden agenda. I'm just trying to put all of this in perspective. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3288 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Engineer. And trumpet player, of course. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9193 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Adams A-9 Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Getzen Capri Cornet (for sale). |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6133 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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kalijah wrote: | Engineer. And trumpet player, of course. |
What kind of engineer? _________________ Bill Bergren |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 726 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Has anyone come up with a demonstration using maybe electronically actuated "lips" that more closely simulate the actions of human lips?
The demo in the video here shows sound can be made with a membrane without pushing air through but at no point does it match the tone of a normally played horn. |
How about those loudspeakers that look like a trumpet (or trombone) bell? I would assume that they would create some kind of standing wage under the right conditions.
Back in the 1980's I was a plant engineer at a large coal fueled power generating station. We used huge numbers (26,880) of 30 feet long fiber bags that collected the dust from burned coal, and it was my area. I got interested in using acoustic energy (really loud sound) to release the dust from the bags.
Anyway, the sound was generated by a titanium disk resting on a round base (like a mouthpiece rim), through which 120 psi air was blown. The diaphragm was at the base of an inverted metal cone (bell) and generated sound at 140 decibels measured 35 feet from the cone. I was able to determine the best results occurred at around 1250 Hz. So I am aware of a mechanical analog, but the air flow was through the cone. I did a bit of testing, and having a gap through which the air could pass would lose acoustic energy.
The test was quite successful and acoustically enhanced cleaning became common across the industry, btw. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Tom LeCompte Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Mar 2004 Posts: 3341 Location: Naperville, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | are you a scientist/engineer/acoustician? |
Physicist. 1628 papers, 211,760 citations.
I don't like discuss the physics of the trumpet, because there is a lot of lore going around that's eitehr false, or confused. Air actually is important - but it's air past the lips that makes the sound, not the gentle breeze through theg tubing.
This is confused by the fact that with a trumpet one cannot get the lips vibrating without also blowing air down the tube, but the video shows that if you come up with a contraption to allown you to do just that, the horn speaks. |
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