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nzjazz New Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2019 Posts: 9 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:31 pm Post subject: Natural tpt or Baroque tpt. |
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Ok....i understand this may a complex question!
Thanks for your patience regarding my prolonged anxiousness to achieve the best possible result.....
Im required to perform LTBS at A415 . It's it worth getting a Baroque tpt or do i stick with Piccolo tuned down to A415?
If i buy a Baroque tpt, can i get a crook that will give me the ability to perform at A440 with a regular orchestra (for TTSS) , and a crook that will give me the ability to perform at A415 with a Baroque chamber ensemble?
Lastly - Baroque tpt versus Natural tpt? (Finger holes vrs no finger holes?)
What other information am i lacking (and thus showig my ignorance?) _________________ Too many trumpets 🤣
(Because you never know!!) |
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RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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I am by no means an expert, but I was looking into getting my first baroque trumpet earlier this year. Decided not to and got something else instead.
Here's what I learned along the way.
1. It's not an easy switch. The mouthpiece is different and the whole feel is different. So if this is a one time thing for you, probably best to just stick with the picc tuned down (Food for thought: Ever consider a custom picc leadpipe @ A415?). If you want to take this as an opportunity to learn baroque trumpet, then maybe a new horn is for you.
2. Most of the horns I looked at come with 4 crooks and yards (the straight tube with the holes) in the basic offering: C & D modern pitch and C & D low pitch (marked "Cb" and "Db") Additional crooks and yards are generally available in any key you might want for additional cost.
3. You can often get a yard with no holes that will turn your baroque trumpet into a natural trumpet.
4. If you do decide to get a baroque trumpet, you need to decide if you are going to learn the three hole system or the four hole system. Three hole trumpets and four hole trumpets have different geometries and there are pros and cons to each. There are great players that play either system, so it comes down mostly to fit - how big are your hands (can you reach 4 holes) and how long are your arms (the three hole has the holes closer to the face and the arms can feel cramped)? You won't have any frame of reference for the feel of the two).
5. You will also need to decide on a bell shape: Ehe vs. Haas. My understanding is that most play the Ehe bell as it is a more tradtitional sound. The Hass is more authentic in (relatively) later orchestral works.
6. The Edward Tarr method books are the standard for learning.
Hope that's helpful. Good luck! _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
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RETrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jan 2021 Posts: 210
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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One last thing...
Unless you find a used horn somewhere, most baroque trumpets are built to order. That means a lead time of several months usually. Do you have the time to wait for delivery and then begin learning a new instrument? Something to consider. _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1444 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:44 am Post subject: |
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Do you have any experience playing a Baroque or Natural trumpet? If the answer is no, then I don't think you should get one for this specific gig. It is a completely different instrument and requires a different sound concept, and playing approach than modern trumpet. It's not "plug and play" the way many people think it is.
Playing LTBS at 415 on picc will be a pain...but you can do it...just play it on A piccolo in the key of E. The pain will be less than frantically trying to play Baroque trumpet at a high level in a short amount of time.
You should definitely get one, though, and I second Norwich. Either that or Egger. (I switched from Egger to Norwich a few years ago). If you want to get something to "mess around on" you could get like a Naumann or something...there are some other brands less expensive than Egger and Norwich as well.
The debate of holes vs no-holes is a silly one... folks will point to Madeuf or Zimmerman and say "See, they can do it!" But I don't think most folks realize how actually superhuman it is for them to do that as effectively as they do. Get holes (and then you can get a no holes yard to practice on, which IS a good idea). _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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patdublc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1050 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Agree with the comments that if you don't have natural/baroque trumpet experience, it isn't something you just pick up a weekend. Very different. Not impossible, but definitely takes some time to develop a good playing style.
I have a 4-hole Haas bell Naumann. It's a good horn and comes with 4 crooks (C/D, high/low pitch). It was make to order when I purchased it. Most probably are.
Interesting thought though - I don't know how easy it would be to pull a picc down to 415. I may have to go try that later. With no adjustment for second valve and very little adjustment for first valve, I'm really not sure how well that will work. Alternate fingerings could help but I think its going to be tough _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1444 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:03 am Post subject: |
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patdublc wrote: | Agree with the comments that if you don't have natural/baroque trumpet experience, it isn't something you just pick up a weekend. Very different. Not impossible, but definitely takes some time to develop a good playing style.
I have a 4-hole Haas bell Naumann. It's a good horn and comes with 4 crooks (C/D, high/low pitch). It was make to order when I purchased it. Most probably are.
Interesting thought though - I don't know how easy it would be to pull a picc down to 415. I may have to go try that later. With no adjustment for second valve and very little adjustment for first valve, I'm really not sure how well that will work. Alternate fingerings could help but I think its going to be tough |
A=415 is basically just a half step low…so just play it in E on A picc.
L _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:29 am Post subject: |
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A silly question but, what is LTBS? Google only show “Let The Bible Speak” which I am pretty sure isn’t right. |
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patdublc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2006 Posts: 1050 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I assumed it was Let The Bright Seraphim which is frequently played on natural/baroque trumpet _________________ Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models. |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:58 am Post subject: |
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Something to think about… If you have been asked to play a baroque work at 415, then the people booking you are expecting to see a natural trumpet when you turn up. One doesn’t tune their modern instrument to different pitches like they do for original instruments.
I am waiting to find a modern instrument orchestra play at baroque pitch, and yet to find one. Thankfully!
So you’ve accepted a gig for natural trumpet. (Or a gig run by people who are a little past ignorant) May as well turn up with a soprano sax if you don’t play one.
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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nzjazz New Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2019 Posts: 9 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Hi everyone.
Thanks for all that invaluable feedback! At the moment I'm going with the piccolo in A option, and practicing it in both E on picc in A, and F on Picc tuned down to Ab.
Pedal B on Picc in A is a lot easier than pedal C on picc tuned down to Ab!
I wish i had my G trumpet with me, but that's not available at this stage.
Outcome will follow eventually. (I have quite a bit of time before the gig). _________________ Too many trumpets 🤣
(Because you never know!!) |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:56 am Post subject: |
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I think Andy has a good point about the expectations of the organizers. Might be worth it to confirm. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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mr oakmount Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2022 Posts: 150 Location: Europe
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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A few years ago I found myself in this very situation by "mistake". We were playing "Let The Bright Seraphim" on modern instruments, but it turned out that the organ (a beautiful "Truhenorgel") that was rented for the gig was tuned to 415.
The strings tuned down (and hated it). The soprano loved it. I tried tuning down too, but it wrecked the intonation, so after trying E major on the A leadpipe, I settled for Eb major on the Bb leadpipe which for some weird reasons sounded better.
In the meanwhile I had my trumpet builder make me an "Ab" leadpipe, and with extending the 1st, 3rd and 4th slide, it works fine. The 2nd slide seems not to be a problem, but you can always tune the 3rd slide to get a pitch perfect A and avoid 1st and 2nd together if it comes up sharp.
Using a natural/baroque trumpet would have been nice, but not as a last minute right-before-the-performance option. |
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1444 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | Something to think about… If you have been asked to play a baroque work at 415, then the people booking you are expecting to see a natural trumpet when you turn up. One doesn’t tune their modern instrument to different pitches like they do for original instruments.
I am waiting to find a modern instrument orchestra play at baroque pitch, and yet to find one. Thankfully!
So you’ve accepted a gig for natural trumpet. (Or a gig run by people who are a little past ignorant) May as well turn up with a soprano sax if you don’t play one.
Cheers
Andy |
This is a REALLY good point...you should probably inquire with contractor about these details. The heroic thing to do would be to apologize and decline the gig if they are expecting a period instrument.
THAT BEING SAID...who knows...they may not care. I've been asked/hired to do some REALLY odd things over the years.
L _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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loudog wrote: | Andy Del wrote: | Something to think about… If you have been asked to play a baroque work at 415, then the people booking you are expecting to see a natural trumpet when you turn up. One doesn’t tune their modern instrument to different pitches like they do for original instruments.
I am waiting to find a modern instrument orchestra play at baroque pitch, and yet to find one. Thankfully!
So you’ve accepted a gig for natural trumpet. (Or a gig run by people who are a little past ignorant) May as well turn up with a soprano sax if you don’t play one.
Cheers
Andy |
This is a REALLY good point...you should probably inquire with contractor about these details. The heroic thing to do would be to apologize and decline the gig if they are expecting a period instrument.
THAT BEING SAID...who knows...they may not care. I've been asked/hired to do some REALLY odd things over the years.
L |
I have this exact thing happen, but in reverse, highly acclaimed natural trumpet player booked to play the B minor mass. Rocked up with his natural trumpet to find a modern instruments and 2 colleagues armed with picc and D.
The result? Well, that belongs to the annals of time - bet there's no one else here who was at that concert!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1548 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Many good thoughts above. Totally agree about the baroque and natural trumpet being very different from the modern trumpet.
A couple of additions.
If you are playing with period instruments, natural trumpet might be possible, but it takes a skilled, practiced musician to pull it off.
Most people use baroque trumpets.
If you are playing with modern instruments in equal temperament, natural trumpet will be nigh to impossible, baroque trumpet problematic but possible for a skilled player.
One possibility is to use a modern mouthpiece with the baroque trumpet, like Alison Balsom does. Still takes a lot of getting used to. Still does not play like a modern trumpet.
If you embark on the baroque/natural trumpet journey, it is a rewarding one. Your modern trumpet playing will benefit. Personally, I find natural trumpet playing more fun/rewarding, but it is not for someone looking to make a living out of it. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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