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henkesweden Regular Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2007 Posts: 15
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: PLEASE HELP ME DESIGN MY NEW TEETH!!! (urgent) |
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Hello all Trumpet-teachers.
Please help me with an urgent problem.
I broke my upper front teeth in an accident and now the dentist is going to make me new ones in plastic and porsolin/china - screwed into my jaw with titanium screws. I was born with bad teeth =overbite and quite a small radius on my upper jaw. Thats makes the angle between my two frontteeth become rather sharp. Now I have the oportunity to get teet more sutible for trumet playing. IS THERER AN OPTIMAL ANGLE BETWEEN THE FRONT TEET FOR TRUMPET PLAYING? If I dont hear from any of you I will get the angle a litte more flat.
I would be very pleased if someone could get me this advice as fast as posible.
best regards / henrik |
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LaBestia Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2007 Posts: 362 Location: 10 minutes from NYC
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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I gave you some info in a recent post to contact the DDS who advertises in the ITG Journal.....have you reached out to him? |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: PLEASE HELP ME DESIGN MY NEW TEETH!!! (urgent) |
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henkesweden wrote: | Hello all Trumpet-teachers.
Please help me with an urgent problem.
I broke my upper front teeth in an accident and now the dentist is going to make me new ones in plastic and porsolin/china - screwed into my jaw with titanium screws. I was born with bad teeth =overbite and quite a small radius on my upper jaw. Thats makes the angle between my two frontteeth become rather sharp. Now I have the oportunity to get teet more sutible for trumet playing. IS THERER AN OPTIMAL ANGLE BETWEEN THE FRONT TEET FOR TRUMPET PLAYING? If I dont hear from any of you I will get the angle a litte more flat.
I would be very pleased if someone could get me this advice as fast as posible.
best regards / henrik |
In the summary of recently posted topics on the home page, I thought the subject of this post was cut off, and that you were probably not actually asking for help designing your new teeth. Turns out you are, though. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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Scorpion Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 1960 Location: hell
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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get them to make you a set of fangs. _________________ -GET OVER HERE!
-1964 Olds Super Balanced Depleted Uranium single flue Harpoon (w/custom coprion hand guard i got from a 1925 Conn Erradicator.) Akright converted handle w/calfskin grip (143xx) |
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bachstrad72 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 871 Location: NJ/Philly
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:17 am Post subject: |
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If you were comfortable playing before, I would say go to that. I have dental molds of my teeth as they are now, just in case anything happens. A new set of teeth could present a whole new set of problems. Just something to think about. Best of luck! _________________ ~Perry Sutton~ |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Have Wayne Bergeron send you a cast of his. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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x3matt Veteran Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 107 Location: Emory, VA
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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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I had a teacher who had a very similar situation, but with more teeth needing to be replaced. He had his teeth put back in a perfect million dollar smile and his trumpet playing was immediately set back years. The muscles could not adjust and the playing was never the same. Just my two cents, I would keep them the same. Matt |
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elgin Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 Posts: 111 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I’m curious how it went.
A ”perfect” set of teeth usually have a flatter surface. So, flat teeth tend to clamp the lips in place, I.e., they can’t contraband relax easily. Not good for trumpet playing. _________________ Harrelson Dreams Trumpet
SIMA
Harrelson SpectraTone Yellow
Patrick 5.3C |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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There is another topic on this subject, "protruding tooth for notes above the staff," which you might want to look at.
Basically several embouchure authorities talk about placing the embouchure on a high spot on the teeth. I have such a high spot because my two front top teeth are just slightly tilted side to side and that is where I place my mpc. It isn't something I planned, but something I noticed later. The thinking on this kind of placement is that it is easier to move the mpc (embouchure motion) through the range if the embouchure contact is more of a point. If it is a large, flat area, that tends to pin the lips down in one position. Also, if the contact point is smaller, there is more room for blood to flow the embouchure elsewhere.
All that said, I guess it would be better to have some slight irregularity where your embouchure/mpc could "perch." What this would look like in practice, I can't tell you. Maybe if you had the two front teeth canted slightly so that there's a high spot in the middle of your smile? I don't think it takes much. Top teeth or bottom teeth, depending on where you place...high or low. I think someone mentioned there being a dentist who is an embouchure expert with whom you could consult. IDK where you find such, but good luck. The main takeaway is that a completely regular, flat set of teeth probably will not work as well as a slightly irregular set. I thought about using invisalign to straighten out my slightly irregular teeth now that I am retired and have the money and the time, but I decided against it, as I don't want to screw up a good thing and my embouchure works real well now that I have had a few Reinhardt lessons and gotten onto the right "track" [pun intended]. Good luck! _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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donovan Veteran Member
Joined: 23 May 2002 Posts: 248 Location: Springfield, MO
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:52 am Post subject: |
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You are welcome to contact me directly. I had my top front left tooth broken and crowned in 1983 and it was replaced with a crown that was longer and thicker than the original. I was only 16 at the time and the dentist wouldn’t listen to me. You must find someone that will listen and be patient with you.
The accident cut my lip and broke about ⅓ of my tooth diagonally. I could still play and played an honor orchestra rehearsal that night and did ok. The problems all came with the bonding that would break when trying to get it to the thickness of the original. The dentist assured me that a crown would be exactly like the original and not break. He was wrong and once the crown was on there was nothing else I could convince him to do.
I struggled and got crazy with mouthpieces and made things worse. However, it did lead me to Claude Gordon and we changed several things including a low mouthpiece placement which was a much more important issue for me to fix. The first 3 to 6 months caused me to question if Claude Gordon was to be trusted but I stuck with it because of what I had seen him accomplish with several other students. Within a year I could play so much easier and do things I never knew were possible before that.
I never wanted to change that crown again but as I got older it didn’t look normal regarding color and shape. Your teeth typically change color over time. In 2019 I had the crown redone after talking with the father of one of my students that is a cosmetic dentist and a former trumpet player through college. He knew how important it was to me and promised he would make sure I was complete happy with playing as the priority.
For about 2 months I did whitening trays to get the color of my teeth to what they could be without coffee or wine effects from drinking those things. Then, we planned a Saturday with just the dentist and his wife assisting him and my girlfriend and myself as the only others in his office in a Saturday. We took molds of the original incase we wanted to reverse course. Next he ground down parts of the crown and I played trumpet in his office. It felt good and he was making the shape more normal. That Monday we took off the crown that had been on my stub of a tooth for 36 years. The tooth under the crown was healthy and the dentist took more molds of that to form the underside of the crown. Then he created a temporary crown that matched the color of my tooth and was very good. I went home and played and it felt fine and a couple weeks later we adjusted it again and he had taken more molds prior to that. Once I was happy we took final molds and sent them to a 3D imaging lab and over a month later he took off the temp crown. That crown looked so realistic with the depth of color. However, it didn’t feel as good as the temp crown and the dentist could see a little of that.
I could still play but it wasn’t the same with a little response lost. We ground on the new crown a couple more times and finally it didn’t look right and had lost the color depth as we got past the upper layer of the crown to the more solid white color under that. It because clear we had to do it again and the dentist actually paid for the second crown to be done at a different lab he had used for a very long time that did everything by hand. That worked and looked great.
If I hadn’t had a dentist willing to listen I would have had the same situation again.
Prior to this I kept the same exact practice routine and practiced every day and I don’t change mouthpieces or horns. I knew I needed to have a way to evaluate the changes. During this process my playing felt strange and I first thought it was the changes to the crown. However, it was really caused by using an Albuterol inhaler to address a dry cough I sometimes get during the winter. Once I figured that out and stopped the inhaler my playing we totally normal again and I told the dentist.
I am sure the changes were much easier because my mouthpiece placement it at least ⅔ to ¾ top lip and everything can vibrate much more free than when I used to have it ¼ top lip. That plus the consistency of a daily smart practice routine were super important.
Damage to teeth is traumatic in lots of ways. But, there is a way to fix any of it if you’re patient and have a good plan. Contact me directly if you wish.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Um, guys . . . the OP was facing the dental problem 15 YEARS AGO. Elgin resurrected the thread out of a desire to hear how things went. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | Um, guys . . . the OP was facing the dental problem 15 YEARS AGO. Elgin resurrected the thread out of a desire to hear how things went. |
...and the OP hasn't posted to a TH thread since 2008. |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Serves me right for getting up too early. I didn’t read the date and just thought I might having something to contribute. Oh well. I will leave my remarks but I do have a bunch of pictures of my process and might create an article on my site about how I worked through the process. Some of the pictures are kind of crazy. I didn’t do any anesthesia and removing the old crown required a slide hammer sort of thing and was pretty aggressive.
Jeff _________________ Jeff Purtle
Trumpet Lessons Online since 2004, teaching since 1983
MultiTouch book on Claude Gordon
+1 864-354-3223 iPhone w/ FaceTime
Skype: jeff_purtle |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: | I didn’t do any anesthesia and removing the old crown required a slide hammer sort of thing and was pretty aggressive. |
When I had a top front tooth extracted I was expecting lots of yanking and tugging but there was none. I was floored when my periodontist said "it's out". _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Jeff_Purtle wrote: | I didn’t do any anesthesia and removing the old crown required a slide hammer sort of thing and was pretty aggressive. |
When I had a top front tooth extracted I was expecting lots of yanking and tugging but there was none. I was floored when my periodontist said "it's out". |
Unfortunately, removing a permanent crown does involve lots of "yanking and tugging"; the forces applied have to break the crown free of its adhesive without damaging or loosening the underlying tooth. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | cheiden wrote: | Jeff_Purtle wrote: | I didn’t do any anesthesia and removing the old crown required a slide hammer sort of thing and was pretty aggressive. |
When I had a top front tooth extracted I was expecting lots of yanking and tugging but there was none. I was floored when my periodontist said "it's out". |
Unfortunately, removing a permanent crown does involve lots of "yanking and tugging"; the forces applied have to break the crown free of its adhesive without damaging or loosening the underlying tooth. |
To clarify, in my case it wasn't a crown but an entire tooth that had become badly infected. My sense is that they cut it out so I never felt any pulling. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:34 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | To clarify, in my case it wasn't a crown but an entire tooth that had become badly infected. My sense is that they cut it out so I never felt any pulling. |
I understood that in your case you were talking about extraction of your entire tooth. I just wasn't sure why you made your original comment about the ease of your tooth extraction in response to Jeff's account of the aggressive nature of a crown removal; my reply was meant to emphasize that the two procedures are "apples and oranges". _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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